Conversation with Cyrus, a WMSCOG member

In my previous post regarding clues that the World Mission Society Church of God is false, one of those commenting was "Cyrus."  Cyrus is currently a member of the WMSCOG and is willing to engage in conversation to clarify some points.  Thank you, Cyrus!

Our conversation will take place right here, through the comment section of this post.  I hope it will serve as a good source of information for the rest of our readers here.  However, I respectfully request that the comments on this post be limited to just Cyrus.  For anyone else who wishes to comment about this conversation, please visit the forum (examiningthewmscog.com/forum), or send me an email.  Thank you!

First, some ground rules, Cyrus, for you and me:

• Each comment should be made in two parts, a response to the previous point and the raising of a question.
• Response -- We should respond to the question that was last put forth, keeping in mind the purpose of explaining and encouraging understanding and not simply fighting.  Also, please avoid using phrases such as "You don't understand because you are not one of God's chosen" (more examples here).  We can also respond to the previous response, as long as it doesn't include an additional question that needs an answer.
• Question -- We should ask a question, either to further pursue the issue, or raise a different point.  For the ease of following the conversation, please limit the question to one point.  Do not ask a question related to your response and ask a new question as well.
• If we think the other's response is incomplete, inadequate, or needs to be clarified, first we should answer their question (give our response), then our question should concern the previous response.  In other words, don't avoid their question in order to focus on their response.  In this way, we should never be talking about more than two topics at once.
• Timeliness is nice, but life is busy.  A delay in answering should not be taken negatively or cause concern, unless there has been silence for more than two weeks.

I hope that is all clear.  Thank you, again, and now let's get started.  You posed the first question...

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"Let us make man in our image... Male and female He created them" Genesis 1:26-27. "the Spirit and the bride say come... Take the free gift of the water of life." Revelation 22. The bride of christ is His bride. Guests are invited to the wedding supper, not the bride. We are the guests. Right?

My response:
The first part of what you wrote (Gen. 1:26-27) is about the word Elohim.  I have written about that here: Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3.  I'm going to focus on your question about Revelation 22.  I understand your question to be, "We are the guests at the wedding supper.  Therefore, doesn't someone else have to be the bride of Christ?"

I have heard the WMSCOG say that the Church cannot be both the bride and the guests at the wedding.  But please consider this...

God is called the father of the Israelites, but God is also called the husband of Israel.  But how can the Israelites be both the children and the wife of God?  It doesn't make sense, does it?

It does when you consider that individually, the people were counted as God's children.  But corporately, together as the nation, they were considered as God's bride

In the same way, individually, we are each invited to become part of the Church, the body of believers.  But corporately, together as the Church body, we are the bride of Christ.

God uses descriptive language to help us understand our relationship with Him.

I hope you are able to understand that this is a valid, alternate interpretation of the same verses.

My question for you:
The WMSCOG teaches that there are two distinct Gods.  How do you reconcile that with verses such as these which declare there is only one God?  (Note that all of these quotes use the singular word for God.)
"For I am God, and there is no other" (Isaiah 45:22 and 46:9)
"Is there a God besides me?  Indeed, there is no other rock; I know not one." (Isaiah 44:8)
"Before Me there was no God formed; nor shall there be after Me." (Isaiah 43:10)
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God," (1 Timothy 1:17)

Ok, your turn.  Please remember the two parts, response and question.

Whom Does Eve Represent?

I've written before about the WMSCOG's prophecy of the "Last Adam."  Part their interpretation of this is the notion that Adam and Eve are both prophetic representations.  To them, the first Adam was a pattern of the Last Adam (from Rom. 5:14), who they say is Ahnsahnghong.  Therefore, they say, Eve must also represent someone in the end times.  Whom does Eve represent?

If you study with the WMSCOG and examine their available online sermons, you'll find statements like this:

"When God created Adam and Eve, each of them had a duty. Adam was a pattern of the one to come (Ro 5:14). Thus his wife, Eve, represents the wife of the Lamb, the Christ to come a second time....  Through this providence described in Genesis, we can understand that Adam is a type of Christ, Eve represents His wife and all mankind living on earth represent Their children: Abel symbolizes those who will be saved and Cain those who will not be saved....  The Lamb and His Wife are God the Father and God the Mother, who have appeared in due time."  (From The Elohim Gods, emphasis mine)

And this:

"The first Adam had a wife named Eve, who gave birth to life. If Adam represents the Second Coming Jesus, whom does Eve, the wife of Adam, represent?
Eve, called the "mother of all the living" (Ge 3:20), represents our Heavenly Mother who is to appear at the end of the age in order to give us eternal life and lead us, together with the Second Coming Jesus—the Last Adam....  The Bible says that the wedding of the Lamb has come and His Bride—His wife [the last Eve]—has made Herself ready, ... Our Heavenly Father and Mother, the Creators, have come to this earth as the Last Adam and Eve...." (From The Sabbath and God the Creator, emphasis mine)

Therefore, the WMSCOG preaches that Eve, as Adam's wife, represents "Mother Jerusalem" (Zahng Gil-Jah).
But, what did Ahnsahnghong say about Eve?

In his book, Visitors from the Angelic World, Ahnsahnghong writes:

"Adam represents Jesus who was in the world of angels before the creation, and Eve represents the angels whom Jesus loved."  (Chapter 13, page 50, emphasis mine)

and

"Thus, Jesus is the last Adam, and the saints who are redeemed can be called the last Eve." (Chapter 13, page 55, emphasis mine)

Ahnsahnghong said that Eve, as Adam's wife, represents the angels, the saints--that's the Church!

Let's go over that again...

The WMSCOG teaches that the last Eve is "Mother God."

Ahnsahnghong taught that the last Eve is the Church (the saints).

This makes us ask--what kind of church contradicts their own founder who they believe was God himself?!

PS -- Did you also notice this?  The WMSCOG teaches that the Last Adam was Ahnsahnghong.  However, Ahnsahnghong taught that the Last Adam was not himself, but Jesus.

The Bride in Revelation

Who is the Bride in the book of Revelation?  Is it the Church or "Mother Jerusalem"?

When I first studied with the COGWMS, the woman I talked to asserted strongly that the Bride in Revelation was "God the Mother" and that in fact NOWHERE in the Bible did the God's Bride refer to the Church.

Now when members explain about the Bride, they will say that yes, in other places in the Bible, the Bride is the Church, but NOT in Relevation.  In Revelation, the Bride must be "God the Mother" (Mother Jerusalem).

Now let's think about the logic they are using.  The COGWMS says...

• "Clouds" are used metaphorically for people in a few verses.  Therefore, when Jesus returns "on the clouds" it means He will be born as a person again.
• Jesus kept the Passover with bread and wine.  Therefore, other verses that mention bread and/or wine are referring to Passover.  (For example, Gen. 14:18 and Is. 25:6).
• The Heavenly Jerusalem in Rev. 21:2 and Gal. 4:26 is "Mother God."  Therefore, many other verses that mention Jerusalem (especially in the Prophetic books) are talking about "Mother God."
• BUT even though the 'bride' of God throughout the Bible refers over and over again to God's people (His nation or His church), it does not in Revelation. 

Not very consistent, is it?
For more information about who the bride (wife) of God is, please read Who Is the Bride?

The Bride IS the Church

You may have read my previous post, Who Is the Bride, where I looked at Bible verses using metaphors of a bride or wife of God.  If you remember, the WMSCOG leader I spoke to was adamant that the Church was NEVER referred to as the Bride.  But the Scriptures do indeed show that the "Bride" or "Wife" of the Lord is not a female God, but the collective people of God--the Israelites / the Church.

This week I happened to watch a WMSCOG produced video, and I was shocked to see that in its effort to show the Catholic Church as the great prostitute (from Revelation), they unwittingly admit that the Church IS the Bride after all!

You can see this video yourself on YouTube.  There are actually several of the same video available to view.  It's called "The Identity of 666."  The video is 7:32 minutes long, but the revealing part is found at about 0:37.

The subtitles say (and I'm quoting, even the verse reference is there):
"In the Bible, "woman" refers to "church." (Ephesians 5:23)
So, the prostitute means the "Antichrist church" that does not follow her husband, Christ."

Those are the WMSCOG's own words!  So if the "Antichrist church" does not follow her husband, Christ, then we can understand that the true church does follow her husband, who is Christ.

Here's Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Caught in their own contradiction once again!

The Wedding of the Lamb

Revelation 19:7-9
Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

This passage about the Wedding of the Lamb in Revelation mentions
(1)the Bridegroom (Jesus, the Lamb),
(2)the bride, and
(3)"those invited to the wedding supper."

The WMSCOG say that if the church/believers are the bride, then who would be the guests? They conclude that it must be Jerusalem Mother who is the bride, and the church/believers are the guests. How can you be invited to your own wedding?

Well, let's look at this in a different way...
Let's imagine a romantic bridegroom who has chosen a bride and will have a wedding soon. The groom has planned the lavish wedding, but hasn't told the bride when it will be. She only knows that she needs to have a travel bag and dress ready at any moment. She may even find herself wearing her nicest clothes and carrying her travel bag as her purse every day! Finally the day of the surprise wedding arrives. The groom stops by to pick up his unsuspecting bride, and drives her to the wedding banquet, and they are married. Since the groom did all of the wedding planning, and the bride only had to show up, she is both a guest and the bride at her own wedding. When she accepted the bridegroom's proposal, she accepted the invitation to her wedding.

Now let's take that same scene, and imagine it as the Wedding of the Lamb in Revelation...
God Himself is entirely in charge of arranging His own wedding--His final union with His faithful Church. We don't know exactly when it's going to be, but of course each believer wants to be ready at any moment. When the time is right, Jesus ushers His Church (the collection of believers) into the Wedding celebration. The Church CAN be BOTH the bride and the guest at the Wedding of the Lamb.

When you accept God's invitation to faith in Jesus Christ, you accept the invitation to be part of the Bride of Christ. You are invited to the Wedding where you will also be part of the Bride. The invitation is open to EVERYONE.
The Church IS the Bride of Christ.

How wonderful is that?!

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Who is the Bride?

When my sister’s WMSCOG study leader was trying to explain to me that the Bride of Christ was Mother Jerusalem, she said that NOWHERE in the Bible is the church presented as the Bride. She said that the church is presented as the guest at the Wedding but NEVER as the Bride. She emphasized that point—NEVER.  The World Mission Society Church of God's goal is to eventually have you believe that the bride of Christ is the Korean woman Zahng Gil-Ja.

But on the contrary, there are many places in the Bible where the Bride/Wife of the Lord is clearly either the church or the nation of Israel. Here are some examples with my own commentary….

Ephesians 5:22-27
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Remember studying analogies in high school? Here is the analogy from these verses… husband is to wife as Christ is to _____________ … yes, the answer is “church”. The relationship between a husband and wife is like the relationship between Christ and the church.

2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
If the church is being presented as a virgin to the husband, Christ, but NOT to be the wife…does that make the church the concubine?

Jeremiah 2:1-2 (NIV)
The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem:
" 'I remember the devotion of your youth,
how as a bride you loved me
and followed me through the desert,
through a land not sown.
By reading this chapter we see that the “you” in this verse is the nation of Israel.

Hosea chapter 2—In this chapter, the wife is the nation of Israel and the children are the Israelites themselves. If Mother Jerusalem is the wife here, then she’s had a serious problem. I’ll just pull out a few verses, but really the whole chapter is relevant.
Hosea 2:2-5
2“Bring charges against your mother, bring charges;
      For she is not My wife, nor am I her Husband!
      Let her put away her harlotries from her sight,
      And her adulteries from between her breasts;
      3 Lest I strip her naked
      And expose her, as in the day she was born,
      And make her like a wilderness,
      And set her like a dry land,
      And slay her with thirst.
      4 “ I will not have mercy on her children,
      For they are the children of harlotry.
      5 For their mother has played the harlot;
      She who conceived them has behaved shamefully.
      For she said, ‘I will go after my lovers,
      Who give me my bread and my water,
      My wool and my linen,
      My oil and my drink.’ 
Let’s assume here the wife is Mother Jerusalem… the woman god has been adulterous, unfaithful to the man god, chasing after other lovers. And the poor children of Mother are illegitimate, conceived in disgrace. God punishes her and refuses to show love to her children. But after the punishment, He woos her again and restores their relationship. I never knew the heavenly couple of Mother Jerusalem and Ahnsahnghong had such drama in their marriage…

Hosea 2:16-17
16 "And it shall be, in that day,”
      Says the LORD,
      “That you will call Me ‘My Husband,’
      And no longer call Me ‘My Master,’
      17 For I will take from her mouth the names of the Baals,
      And they shall be remembered by their name no more.

Hosea 2:19-20
19 "I will betroth you to Me forever;
      Yes, I will betroth you to Me
      In righteousness and justice,
      In lovingkindness and mercy;
      20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness,
      And you shall know the LORD.
Remember that to “betroth” means to promise to marry. Again, these verses do not make sense with the story of Mother Jerusalem.

Isaiah 54:4-7
4 "Do not fear, for you will not be ashamed;
      Neither be disgraced, for you will not be put to shame;
      For you will forget the shame of your youth,
      And will not remember the reproach of your widowhood anymore.
      5 For your Maker is your husband,
      The LORD of hosts is His name;
      And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel;
      He is called the God of the whole earth.
      6 For the LORD has called you
      Like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
      Like a youthful wife when you were refused,”
      Says your God.
      7 “For a mere moment I have forsaken you,
      But with great mercies I will gather you.

These are more verses that would be scandalous if they were talking about Mother Jerusalem—shamed in her youth and abandoned by God? The bride/wife here is obviously the nation of Israel.

How about Jeremiah chapter 3? Here are verses 14 and 20:
14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.
20 Surely, as a wife treacherously departs from her husband,
      So have you dealt treacherously with Me,
      O house of Israel,” says the LORD.

If Jude 1:12 and Prov. 25:14 can be used to say that clouds=flesh, then surely Jer. 3:20 must mean that wife=Israel, not Mother Jerusalem.

But what about Rev. 22:17?
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
The WMSCOG will tell you that since only God can give life, and the “bride” is inviting us to come and take the water of life, then the bride must be God (“Mother God”).
But the very next sentence has the hearers (ordinary people) also inviting us to come and take the water of life. But the same argument would say that we also are gods, and we know that isn’t so.
Therefore, it is not necessary that the bride is God, and it is entirely possible that the bride is the church.  And not just possible...the Bride IS the Church.

PS--You can find an update to this post here.