Clouds and Flesh, Part 3

Continuing on about whether "clouds" are symbolic of "flesh" and therefore mean that Christ will return by being born in the flesh...

I wanted to see if there are any other Scriptures concerning someone coming in or with clouds, or riding on clouds. Can “clouds” can be interpreted as “flesh” there?…

Now the LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him [Moses] there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.  And the LORD passed before him…. (Ex 34:5-6)
It seems here that the Lord did appear to Moses in some kind of form, but as for the cloud, God was known to show His presence to the Israelites in the form of a cloud or pillar of cloud. So the word still means that there was an actual cloud on the mountain with Moses, such as in Ex 24:15.  Besides, if this meant that God was being born as a baby, there would not have been time for Him to grow up enough to stand there and talk with him.

Then the LORD came down in the cloud, and spoke to him [Moses], and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders... (Num 11:25)
The seventy elders were there with Moses (v.24), so if God actually stood there as a man in flesh with Moses, I’m sure it would have caused quite a commotion that definitely would have been written about. Here again it is the cloud of the Lord’s presence.

Then the LORD came down in the pillar of cloud and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward. (Num 12:5)
Did God stand as a man in flesh and call to Aaron and Miriam? Verse 10 says that “the cloud lifted from above the tent,” (NIV) so we know it was the cloud of the Lord’s presence and not a man in flesh that spoke with Aaron and Miriam and then rose into the sky (that also would have been notable to write down).  Besides, was God born as a baby every time He is said to "come down in a cloud" for the Israelites in the wilderness?  No.

There is no one like the God of Jeshurun,
      Who rides the heavens to help you,
      And in His excellency on the clouds. (Deut 33:26)
This passage is about how God comes swiftly and mightily to help us. Can He help us by coming in the flesh? Well, Jesus came in the flesh and helped us, but looking at the context, I don’t think that’s what this Scripture meant.  Moses lived long before Jesus, and he was talking in the present tense about God.

He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under His feet. (Ps 18:9 NIV)
Well, this could be that dark people were under His feet, but the next verse talks about God soaring “on the wings of the wind.” So it more likely means that God was above the dark clouds in the sky.

Sing to God, sing praises to His name;
         Extol Him who rides on the clouds,
         By His name YAH,
         And rejoice before Him. (Ps 68:4)
Are we to praise God who comes in the flesh? Jesus came in the flesh, and we are to praise Him, so this verse could work with the “flesh” interpretation. But somehow, I think the writer (David) was picturing a God great enough to ride the clouds like a chariot, like in Ps 104.

...Who stretch out the heavens like a curtain. 
He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters,
         Who makes the clouds His chariot,
         Who walks on the wings of the wind (Ps 104:2-3)
Here God is pictured as riding on the clouds like a chariot. Could it mean that God has a body of flesh? Maybe, but looking at the surrounding verses which talk about God’s sovereignty over the grandness of nature, it is more likely talking about actual clouds.

...Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud,
      And will come into Egypt... (Isa 19:1)
Is God coming to Egypt in the flesh? Joseph and Mary did take the baby Jesus and flee to Egypt for a time, but looking at this verse in context, that’s not the time that is being talked about (it sounds like some kind of civil war in Egypt). Could it maybe happen with the Second Coming Christ? Did Ahnsahnghong go to Egypt, or maybe Jerusalem Mother? Is this maybe a prophecy they have fulfilled?  Hmmmm.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:17)
In this Scripture it is the people who are alive together with the saints who have died who join the Lord in the air.  It is pretty obvious that the people will ascend bodily, in the flesh, and also that they will be in the air where there are actual clouds.  Here, "clouds" could mean "flesh" or "clouds" or both.

And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. (Rev 11:12)
These are the two witnesses whom God allows to prophesy for 1260 days. They are killed and their bodies lie in the street for 3 ½ days, after which they are resurrected and ascend to heaven. Since their enemies saw them, they must have gone up to heaven in the flesh, so “cloud” meaning “flesh” could work. But this does resemble Jesus’ ascension, so “cloud” could mean an actual cloud.

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”  So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. (Rev 14:14-16)
Here Jesus is seated on a cloud like a throne. It could be that He will be a man in the flesh harvesting the earth, but it could also be just a descriptive image of a king so great that He needs a throne as big and high as the clouds.  Or it could be another image of the cloud of the Lord's presence, as in Exodus.

Here's the conclusion of the matter...
Most of the time in the Bible, "clouds" refer to actual clouds or the great cloud of the Lord's presence.  When Jesus returns "on the clouds," that's most likely what is being described--either an actual cloud or the cloud of the Lord's glorious presence.

In other places, it is used to provide a desciptive image as a simile or metaphor to the reader (or hearer, since in those times the Scriptures were often read aloud).
IF "clouds" are sybolic of "flesh", then that symbolism is definitely not used consistently in other references for clouds.
Furthermore, in those few verses where it might be symbolic for "flesh," the interpretation of "being born in the flesh as a baby" does not fit.

Mainstream Christianity does believe that Jesus will return bodily, in the flesh, and not because of any interpretation of "clouds" meaning "flesh."  He still has a body.  He doesn't need a new one to be born into. 

 
But think about this:
Giving it the benefit of the doubt that the prophesies mean Jesus will return to earth as a baby again, to grow into a man of flesh. Who could potentially fulfill that prophecy? Ahnsahnghong, yes...and every man on earth. So it would really be no help at all in pinpointing who was the Second Coming Christ.

Clouds and Flesh, Part 2

Continuing on with verses the World Mission Society Church of God uses to support their interpretation that Jesus' return "on the clouds" means that He will be born again in the flesh...

Revelation 10:1--I saw still another mighty angel coming down from heaven, clothed with a cloud. And a rainbow was on his head, his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire.

They say that “clothed with a cloud” means “clothed in flesh.” But is it not possible for Jesus to wrap clouds around Himself like a robe? Clouds are used to describe a covering or garment in other verses, and substituting the word “flesh” would not make sense in the other verses. Why interpret it as “flesh” just in this verse?  Here are the others...

“and the LORD said to Moses: 'Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat.” (Lev 16:2)
Does this mean that God was appearing as a man in flesh over the atonement cover?

“He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
      Yet the clouds are not broken under it.
He covers the face of His throne,
      And spreads His cloud over it.” (Job 26:8-9)
Does God use His flesh to wrap up the waters or cover the moon?

“When I made the clouds its [the earth's] garment,
      And thick darkness its swaddling band” (Job 38:9)
Is the earth clothed in flesh?

“How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion
      With a cloud in His anger!...” (Lam 2:1)
Here Israel is covered with a cloud, but not flesh—it’s descriptive of the Lord’s anger.

“You [God] have covered Yourself with a cloud,
      That prayer should not pass through.” (Lam 3:44)  
God may have covered Himself with flesh as Jesus, but that’s not what this verse is talking about. It would be pretty sad for us if Jesus’ flesh was so thick He wouldn’t hear our prayers.

“Thick clouds cover Him, so that He cannot see,
      And He walks above the circle of heaven.” (Job 22:14)  
Similarly, if Jesus’ flesh was so thick that He didn’t see us from heaven, I would be very discouraged.

“He made darkness His secret place;
         His canopy around Him was dark waters
         And thick clouds of the skies.” (Ps 18:11)
If dark flesh were His canopy or covering, maybe we should be looking for a Savior with dark skin?

“Then Solomon spoke:
      'The LORD said He would dwell in the dark cloud.” (2 Chron 6:1)
Is this the Lord having dark skin again? No, it’s describing the cloud of the Lord’s presence.
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Daniel 7:13--
"I was watching in the night visions,
      And behold, One like the Son of Man,
      Coming with the clouds of heaven!
      He came to the Ancient of Days,
      And they brought Him near before Him."
 
When you look at this Scripture alongside Matt 28:18, “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth,” and Luke 22:29, “And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me,” then it looks as though Dan 7:13 is talking about Jesus’ first coming. The WMSCOG says that since Jesus was born as a baby, “clouds” here means “flesh."

If this vision is about Jesus’ first coming, then it could easily be something happening in the heavenly realm before Jesus is born on the earth.

Or it could be happening when Jesus ascends into heaven. If you look at Acts 1:9, “Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight,” and John 20:17, “... ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’” Can you imagine Jesus ascending into a cloud and then riding on that cloud straight into the scene in Daniel 7?  Isn’t it possible that Jesus was given authority and a kingdom before He came to earth, and had an official ceremony for it after He returned to heaven?  Or that the giving of authority and the kingdom was repeated, maybe for emphasis or as a “job well done”?

Ahnsahnghong (page 221 of the Water of Life book) and the WMSCOG seem to believe that a actual cloud could not physically support the body of Jesus, and that Jesus would have to be waiting around in the sky (like a satellite maybe?) until it was time to return, that He would not be able to travel between heaven and earth when it was time to descend in the clouds.

Though Jesus was a physical being after His resurrection, His body was not of ordinary flesh like we have. In John 20 verses 19 and 26, we see two different occasions when Jesus appeared in a room when all the doors were closed and locked. And in Mark 16:19, Luke 24:51, and Acts 1:9, He physically goes up into the sky. If His resurrection body can do these things, it should be no problem for a Him to come on an actual cloud.

Since the angels in Acts 1:11 said, “…why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” What does this mean?
Descending from the sky from the clouds? Probably.
In a physical form of flesh that we can see? Probably.
Being born as a baby again? Probably not since He did not go into heaven as a baby.
Why did the angels question the people about standing around looking at the sky? I think because the people needed to stop looking so intently for Jesus’ return and get to the business of telling the world about Him.

I have a little more about clouds that I'll post next time...

Click here to go on to Part 3.

Clouds and Flesh, Part 1

There are six verses in the Bible that talk about Jesus Christ's returning on/in/with the clouds:
Matt 24:30, 26:64; Mark 13:26, 14:62; Luke 21:27; Rev. 1:7

The World Mission Society Church of God says that clouds are symbolic of flesh, so they say that these verses mean that Jesus will return in the flesh.

I too believe that Jesus will return bodily, as the angels said in Acts 1:11, "...This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." 
When He went into heaven, Jesus rose bodily into the clouds/sky.  To come back in the same manner would be to return bodily from the clouds/sky.

But, instead of Jesus returning in the same body He left with, the WMSCOG uses their "clouds=flesh" interpretation to say that Christ will return by being born into a new body.  In other words, rather than Christ coming back "in the same way you have seen him go into heaven," they say He will come back in the same way He came the first time, born into flesh as a baby again.

Do "clouds" represent "flesh" this way in the Bible, that Christ will return by being born in the flesh?  Or do “clouds” represent … “clouds", that Christ will return from the sky or in a cloud?

To find out, I did a keyword search for "cloud" and got 152 hits in the NKJV and sorted through them all.

• In many verses, it is clearly an actual cloud, such as a raincloud or a cloud of smoke, as from a fire (such as Genesis 9:14 and Judges 20:38).
• In several verses it is used to describe a day of darkness, but it may not necessarily be actual clouds—it may be figurative for the darkness of oppression and despair (such as Ezekiel 30:3 and 34:12).
• But in many, many verses it is the cloud of the Lord’s presence, such as that led the Israelites or covered the temple or mountain (such as Exodus 40:38 and Leviticus 16:2).

If Jesus' return "on the clouds" is symbolic of something, why not a time of oppression and despair, or the Lord's great presence as manifested for the Israelites in the wilderness?  Why have clouds symbolic of flesh?

Using the official church website, and Ahn Sahng-Hong's Water of Life book (Chapter 15), I've examined each of the Scriptures they've used to interpret "clouds" as "flesh"....
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Hebrews 12:1--Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.

The WMS COG says that in Heb. 12:1 “clouds” represent people, “Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…,” because the witnesses are people. This Greek word is Strong’s # 3509 defined as “a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng,” and it denotes a “great shapeless collection of vapor” rather than a “definite and particular masses of vapor with some form or shape.” This is like when we say there is a “cloud of flies” over the picnic. We do not mean an actual rain-type of cloud; we mean a whole bunch of flies gathered together, kind of like the water vapor that gathers together to make a cloud. In Hebrews 11, we just had a description of many people of great faith who had died, and the author is now picturing them surrounding us (like a cloud of flies would) encouraging us. This is not quite the same sense of “cloud” as a fluffy cloud in the sky. But we can give it the benefit of the doubt, if the other Scriptures also support “cloud” being “flesh.”
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Jude 1:12--These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots
2 Peter 2:17--These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Proverbs 25:14--Whoever falsely boasts of giving
      Is like clouds and wind without rain.

The WMSCOG says these verses show that "clouds" (or mists/water) represent "people".  Actually, in literature, we call these expressions metaphors and similes. Similes and metaphors are used to suggest a resemblance between things that are not literally the same, like saying, “His heart was a block of ice.”

If we use this same reasoning, then “clouds” can be:

A dead person (not exactly what you’d want in a Savior)—“As the cloud disappears and vanishes away, So he who goes down to the grave does not come up.” (Job 7:9)

Or safety (is Jesus returning “safely”?)—“Terrors overwhelm me; my dignity is driven away as by the wind, my safety vanishes like a cloud.” (Job 30:15 NIV)

Or a king’s favor (will Jesus return with “favor”?)-- “In the light of the king’s face is life, And his favor is like a cloud of the latter rain.” (Prov 16:15)

Or offenses/sins (Is Jesus returning with sin and offense?)-- “I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, And like a cloud, your sins....” (Isa 44:22)

Or ships (Jesus will return in a ship, maybe with big white sails?)-- “Who are these who fly like a cloud, And like doves to their roosts?  Surely the coastlands shall wait for Me; And the ships of  Tarshish will come first...” (Isa 60:8-9)

Or armies (Jesus may come with an army. I can imagine that, and it can be supported by Rev 19:14-16.)—Isa 14:31 and Eze 38:9, 16. “You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land.” (Eze 38:16)

Or anger (Jesus will return angry?)--“How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in His anger!...” (Lam 2:1)

So linking "clouds" with "flesh" is not as straight forward as it might first appear.  I'll have more about this tomorrow...

Click here to go on to Part 2.

Examining Prophecies--He will come in the flesh

When I questioned how Ahnsahnghong can be proven to be the Christ, I was told to look at the prophecies. Just as how it might be hard to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, looking at the prophecies He fulfilled is very convincing. In the same way, the World Mission Society Church of God says, there are prophecies about the return of Jesus, and if Ahnsahnghong fulfills those prophecies, then he must be the second coming Christ, even if it seems unlikely just by the looks of things.

With Jesus, there are numerous, SPECIFIC prophecies that He fulfilled, like...
He will be descended from David - 2 Sam. 7:16
He will be born in Bethlehem - Micah 5:2
He will be pierced - Zech. 12:10
He will enter Jerusalem on a donkey - Zech. 9:9
Even the time of His appearing - Daniel 9
and those are just a few. They can be used to narrow down a list of potential Messiahs to pinpoint the One.

For Ahnsahnghong, it may be easy to say he is the Christ and then find "prophecies" that he supposedly fulfilled. But what if you just look at those so-called prophecies and see if they can pinpoint Ahnsahnghong as the one-and-only second coming Christ? If they are valid prophecies, and if Ahnsahnghong is "the One", then that is exactly what should happen. Does it?...

I'll examine these prophecies (the same ones the WMSCOG uses) one by one.

When the second-coming Christ appears:
He will appear in the flesh, as at His first coming.
Christ will come on the clouds:
Luke 21:27-28; Matt 24:30; Rev. 1:7
“Cloud” is symbolic of flesh (people):
Heb. 12:1; Jude 1:12
Therefore, the second coming Christ will be born in the flesh as a baby.

I disagree with the interpretation of "clouds" equaling "flesh", and I will show that through the Bible another time. But let’s just say for the sake of argument that this is a correctly interpreted prophecy. How can that help us narrow down the possibilities of who the second coming Christ could be? Hmmm, who has been born in the flesh…? Yes, Ahnsahnghong has fulfilled that prophecy...along with every single person on earth. So this prophecy does nothing to show that Ahnsahnghong (or anyone else) is the second coming Christ. This prophecy is so unhelpful that I think it shouldn’t count at all. … Oh wait, yes, it can be helpful—interpreted this way, it rules out any being appearing in a supernatural way, such as riding on an actual cloud.

On the other hand, Acts 1:9-11 says
"Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”"

The WMSCOG says that "in the same way" (NIV) means that he will be in the flesh, just as he ascended in the flesh. But the Greek word that is translated "in the same way" or "in like manner" has to do with action, manner, the way something is done. The angels are therefore referring to the action of Jesus ascending into the sky, not His appearance, as in what He was wearing or what He looked like.

Please note that Christians do believe in a physical return of Christ, but when the WMSCOG talks of Jesus returning in the flesh, they don't just mean a physical return, they mean that He will be born again as a baby--a much different idea.

It is reasonable to look for Christ to return from the sky or on the clouds. But if you followed the WMSCOG interpretation and looked for someone born in the flesh, anybody can fulfill that!