Heavenly Mother - Conversation with Paul

In my post about Galatians 4:26, "Paul Francis" wanted to discuss the meaning of "Jerusalem."  (It's an important question for the World Mission Society Church of God, or WMSCOG.)  For ease of discussion, and so others can follow along, we'll continue that conversation here in the comment section (similar to my previous conversation with Cyrus).

Because this is specifically a conversation with Paul, to avoid confusion and complication, I respectfully request that anyone else refrain from adding questions and comments here.  You are welcome to email me, though, and I will save your responses for a later post (similar to the responses to Cyrus).

Ok, Paul.  First of all, some guidelines for us both:

• Each comment should be made in two parts, a response to the previous point and the raising of a question.
• Response -- We should respond to the question that was last put forth, keeping in mind the purpose of explaining and encouraging understanding and not simply fighting.  Also, please avoid using phrases such as "You don't understand because you are not one of God's chosen" (more examples here).  We can also respond to the previous response, as long as it doesn't include an additional question that needs an answer.
• Question -- We should ask a question, either to further pursue the issue, or raise a different point.  For the ease of following the conversation, please limit the question to one point.  Do not ask a question related to your response and ask a new question as well.  Though it is understandable to ask a couple questions if they are all very closely related.
• If we think the other's response is incomplete, inadequate, or needs to be clarified, first we should answer their question (give our response), then our question should concern the previous response.  In other words, don't avoid their question in order to focus on their response.  In this way, we should never be talking about more than two topics at once.
• Timeliness is nice, but life is busy.  A delay in answering should not be taken negatively or cause concern, unless there has been silence for more than two weeks.

I hope that is all clear.  Thank you for your cooperation, and now let's get started.  First I'll recap the last part of conversation on the Galatians 4:26 page:

Paul:  
Yes it is highly figurative. The apostle when it came to explain the new covenant did not mention Sarah or new law but just mentioned about the heavenly Jerusalem. To get a better understanding about the heavenly Jerusalem we must find related verses in the bible and read them together to understand and not in parts.

Genny:
He didn't say much about it probably because this passage was focused on showing how we are free from slavery to the law, and not focused on the "heavenly Jerusalem."

If you were wanting a "better understanding about the heavenly Jerusalem" as you say, I would not start with this verse at all. I would look first (and mainly) at Heb. 12:22-24 and Rev. 21.

Paul:
Understanding the heavenly Jerusalem properly does include the verse Gal 4:26. And the apostle did focus a lot and thereby described Jerusalem as our Mother.

And now I'll take the first turn here in the response/question format:

Genny:
If you read the whole passage (Galatians 4:21-31), there are 10 verses.  Only two of them mention Jerusalem.  Six of them directly mention Sarah and/or Hagar (two more if you count verses 26-27).  Five of them directly mention the sons Isaac and/or Ishmael (who was not named, but we know who he was).  Therefore, I would say his metaphors were focused on the women and the sons, not on Jerusalem.  That's why, if you were wondering about a "heavenly Jerusalem" I would not start with those verses.

My question for you... You had asked me before what I thought of when I heard the word "Jerusalem."  You agreed with my response that it was a city.  When you think of Jerusalem the city, what specifically do you think of?  Do you include all the people (inhabitants) in that thought picture, just see the buildings (like empty shells), or maybe just the physical location (as a dot on the map), or...?

Now it's your turn.  Please remember the two parts, response and question.

Summary of WMSCOG points -- Responding to comments

Thank you, everyone, for sending your comments.  I regret that because of various reasons it's not practical for me to post them all, but I do read them all.

This one from Anonymous (a popular name around here) gave such a concise summary of what I often hear from World Mission Society Church of God members, I thought it deserved a point by point response.  I hope its author returns to continue the conversation.

I haven't edited anything out of the comment, just corrected a few spelling mistakes...

On April 21, 2014, Anonymous wrote:

Everything on this site is false. 

I hope that means you've read everything on this site. Otherwise you couldn't say such a thing with certainty.  :)  I suggest you start here, if you haven't already.

For one, if God were to come IN THE FLESH as the bible clearly and jesus said HE WOULD a second time.. then as a man in the flesh, HE HAS TO GO THROUGH A PHYSICAL DEATH AGAIN! Doesn't mean that SPIRITUALLY he's going to die! Two DIFFERENT deaths! 

Yes, Jesus said He would return, but there is no reason to assume, as you have, that it means He must be born again as a baby, grow up, and die.  He was bodily resurrected.  That means His body did not decay.  That means He does not need a new body to be born into.  He does NOT have to go through a physical death again.

Two, Jesus said that when he came again that he would also bear a NEW NAME. It's the same concept now as then! When jesus was here, it had already been prophesied that God would come in the flesh as a man and would bear a new name. 

All of God's names in the Bible describe His character in one way or another.  Even the name Jesus means "the Lord saves."  Any 'new name' of Jesus is going to describe His character in a way that hasn't yet been done.  Do you know what the name "Ahn Sahng Hong" means?

And by the way, please direct me to the Old Testament prophecy that tells that God would "bear a new name" when He came in the flesh.  That one's not jumping out at me at the moment.

Who were the only people to recognize Jesus?? His disciples! How? Not from miracles, but BIBLE PROPHECY! Only God can fulfill His own prophecy!! 

By 'disciples' you must mean all of those who followed Him (there were more than just the 12 apostles).  But take a look at how they came to follow Jesus.  For example, read John 1:29-51 to see how John the Baptist, James, John, Andrew, Peter, Philip, and Nathanael recognized Jesus.  Bible prophecy was not the first reason.  Prophecy confirmed it later for them (which it should for us also), but your statement seems a bit misleading.

It predicted through scripture where he'd come again which was south korea. 

No, the WMSCOG interprets the scripture to say that he will be born as a baby in Korea, and then they show you that Ahnsahnghong fulfills that interpretation.  It's a self-fulfilling circle.  Read more about the "from the east" prophecy here, here, and here.

He fulfilled the remaining years to preach the gospel which JESUS DIDNT FULFILL! It was supposed to had been 40 years! Jesus preached 3 before he was crucified! Ahn Sahng Hong fulfilled ALL of the prophesies on second coming christ and preached the remaining 37 years!! 

No, this is another self-fulfilling prophecy.  The 40 years is the WMSCOG's own interpretation and does not hold up to examination.  Read more about it here, here, and here.

And just like jesus never proclaimed to be god, neither did he!! 

Yes, Jesus did proclaim that He is God.  His saying, "I am God," may not be recorded, but what he did say made it clear enough to the people around Him.  Read John 10:30-33; 8:58-59.

He wanted us to recognize him through his word! Its a test of our faith and belief in his PROPHECIES! The bible is a literal blue map [blueprint?] on how to receive our salvation and recognize christ in the flesh and that's how you recognize the true christs from the false people CLAIMING to be him in the last days!

Yes, you are definitely right that we must be able to recognize false christs in these last days, and that the Bible will help us do that.  It's very important not to worship a false christ, isn't it?  Please use the Bible, the historical records, and common logic to help you to not fall in that trap.

Clearly whoever made this site was SPIRITUALLY blind!! 

We could argue back and forth about who is spiritually blind, but let's stick to looking at the facts we can find instead. :)

I read about this church before really going and decided to see what's so bad and false, but have found nothing but truth! They teach SCRIPTURE AND PROPHECY RIGHT OUT OF THE BIBLE IN FRONT OF YOU as you read yourself. 

I have studied with them in person, and I have to say that at first it seems impressive.  BUT that is only superficial.  It doesn't hold up to examination, and have you tried to correct them or gave them an alternate (valid) interpretation?  Have you done some research and gone back to tell them where there is a mistake? 

If you do, then like me, you will likely be accused of not believing the Bible (by which they mean not believing in their interpretation), or accused of not believing God (by which they mean not believing them).  That could be very intimidating to the average person.

If you went and tested the waters you'd see! No false person could make this up and use god's words to glorify himself because the bible would contradict their words. HOWEVER, nothing I've learned can contradict itself!

Yes, both the Bible and the historical record contradict the WMSCOG.  They even contradict themselves sometimes.  Please read my summary of key verses, summary of internal evidence, and summary of mistakes.

Scripture BACKS UP OTHER SCRIPTURES THEN SO DOES HISTORY! 

I'll point out these contradictions in particular...

History does not back up the WMSCOG.  Please read about the historical mistakes in their Antichrist doctrine.

And Scripture does not back up the WMSCOG, which is especially clear when you look at their feast calendar.  Did you know that if you kept the fall feasts with the WMSCOG last October (2013) you kept them in the 8th month instead of the 7th month?

I am glad that you visited my website and took the time to comment.  I hope to hear back from you again.