Our conversation will take place right here, through the comment section of this post. I hope it will serve as a good source of information for the rest of our readers here. However, I respectfully request that the comments on this post be limited to just Cyrus. For anyone else who wishes to comment about this conversation, please visit the forum (examiningthewmscog.com/forum), or send me an email. Thank you!
First, some ground rules, Cyrus, for you and me:
- Each comment should be made in two parts, a response to the previous point and the raising of a question.
- Response -- We should respond to the question that was last put forth, keeping in mind the purpose of explaining and encouraging understanding and not simply fighting. Also, please avoid using phrases such as "You don't understand because you are not one of God's chosen" (more examples here). We can also respond to the previous response, as long as it doesn't include an additional question that needs an answer.
- Question -- We should ask a question, either to further pursue the issue, or raise a different point. For the ease of following the conversation, please limit the question to one point. Do not ask a question related to your response and ask a new question as well.
- If we think the other's response is incomplete, inadequate, or needs to be clarified, first we should answer their question (give our response), then our question should concern the previous response. In other words, don't avoid their question in order to focus on their response. In this way, we should never be talking about more than two topics at once.
- Timeliness is nice, but life is busy. A delay in answering should not be taken negatively or cause concern, unless there has been silence for more than two weeks.
"Let us make man in our image... Male and female He created them" Genesis 1:26-27. "the Spirit and the bride say come... Take the free gift of the water of life." Revelation 22. The bride of christ is His bride. Guests are invited to the wedding supper, not the bride. We are the guests. Right?My response:
The first part of what you wrote (Gen. 1:26-27) is about the word Elohim. I have written about that here: Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3. I'm going to focus on your question about Revelation 22. I understand your question to be, "We are the guests at the wedding supper. Therefore, doesn't someone else have to be the bride of Christ?"
I have heard the WMSCOG say that the Church cannot be both the bride and the guests at the wedding. But please consider this...
God is called the father of the Israelites, but God is also called the husband of Israel. But how can the Israelites be both the children and the wife of God? It doesn't make sense, does it?
It does when you consider that individually, the people were counted as God's children. But corporately, together as the nation, they were considered as God's bride
In the same way, individually, we are each invited to become part of the Church, the body of believers. But corporately, together as the Church body, we are the bride of Christ.
God uses descriptive language to help us understand our relationship with Him.
I hope you are able to understand that this is a valid, alternate interpretation of the same verses.
My question for you:
The WMSCOG teaches that there are two distinct Gods. How do you reconcile that with verses such as these which declare there is only one God? (Note that all of these quotes use the singular word for God.)
"For I am God, and there is no other" (Isaiah 45:22 and 46:9)
"Is there a God besides me? Indeed, there is no other rock; I know not one." (Isaiah 44:8)
"Before Me there was no God formed; nor shall there be after Me." (Isaiah 43:10)
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God," (1 Timothy 1:17)
Ok, your turn. Please remember the two parts, response and question.
Alright, let us do this. I agree to your game plan. I'll try not to wait more than 2 weeks. Maybe we can also agree to close this conversation, finish this. Disclaimer: I'm not interested in offending anyone. Some things I see differently now, and could be offensive because its part of their faith. I'll try to be cool. Also I've attended church since my babyhood. I've attended pentecostal, baptist, alliance, united, non-denomination, catholic even. Been there, done that. I was right there with you.
ReplyDeleteMy response:
Personally i think (not that i was taught this) that heavenly Father, heavenly Mother are one, one God. Together they are one God. I think this because of Mark 10:8. You know that woman that lives my house. She's my wife and a very different personality, entity, creation. But according to the bible we are one flesh, but we are not attached at the hip, but 2 beings and very separate.
Now there are many verses that state there is one God. One being. One entity. As you suggest. I'll show you what appears to be a contradiction: Isaiah 43:11. "I am the Lord (YHWH), apart from me there is no savior."
Acts 4:10 "...It is by the name of Jesus Christ... Salvation is found in no one else..."
So which verse is true then? Oops, i asked a question. Both verses are true. So to answer your question about there being one God, there is a God for a certain period of time. From Adam to John the Baptist there was YHWH, God the father who saved the people. Then the messiah of the Jews came and they didn't recognize Him. They murdered Jesus. I always wonder if the Romans were meant to kill Jesus and not the Jews. (The jews took responsibility his death). Regardless, Jesus saved the people as we know. And us gentiles were allowed to receive salvation. So in regards to a specific period of time, we believe now the savior is God the Father and God the Mother as written in Revelation 22:17 "The Spirit and the bride say come... Take the free gift of the water of life." We believe the water of life is eternal life as Jesus said in John 4:10-14 "living water... Welling up to eternal life."
Question: Who do you think is the name of our savior?
A. The Lord
B. YHWH
C. The sun god Ra
D. Virgin Mary
E. Justin Beiber
F. Jesus
G. Jesus' new name (Revelation 3:12)
H. The name of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)
I. _____________
Yes, I agree that we cannot continue this conversation indefinitely, forever. I'm not sure we will actually 'finish' because there will always be more we could talk about. But eventually we will need to stop. I'm glad to know you have some Christian background. I'm not meaning to offend anyone either, but it is possible to respectfully disagree.
ReplyDeleteMy response:
God Himself is our savior. He has many names in the Bible, but the only human name (or name for Him as God incarnate, God the Son) is Jesus. (Unless you count the variety of spellings of Jesus.)
I have many names too. Among them are Mom, Wife, Sister, Auntie, Niece, Teacher, Genny, Mrs. ______, __________, etc. I will answer to any of those, depending on who's doing the calling. But I will not answer to Susan, Barbara, Mister, etc.
I believe it is the same with God. He will answer to any of the names He has given us in the Bible. But I don't believe He will answer to Mr. Moon, Jim Jones, Bob, etc.
Just to clarify, regarding Is. 43:11 and Acts 4:10, Christianity teaches that Jehovah and Jesus are still just one God.
Question:
You say that you think 'Father' and 'Mother' are together one God. This is the same concept as the Trinity, just two-in-one (Father and Mother) instead of three-in-one (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). This view is called "binitarianism." (You can look it up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binitarianism)
Binitarianism (still one God) is different from bitheism (two gods, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism#Duotheism.2C_bitheism.2C_ditheism).
What exactly does the WMSCOG teach about God--binitarianism or bitheism? Two aspects of a single God, or two Gods? I hope you see the distinction I'm trying to make. If you are not absolutely sure if it's one or two, please ask.
Hi Cyrus,
ReplyDeleteI got both your messages. You were right about my being busy. Plus, I didn't get to your message right away because I didn't even have my computer for more than 4 days. I wasn't offended by anything. :) I will put both of your responses together here (I know they are almost the same, but I don't want to miss anything). Then I'll post the question in your second message, because maybe you changed your mind about the question in the first message. (You can always ask that one again later, if you want.)
September 7 and 10, Cyrus said--
ReplyDeleteResponse:
My church is very specific in their teachings. And of course I'm still learning. But they teach me we have two Gods in heaven. That is Elohim. Adam and Eve represent them. The spirit and the bride in revelation are them. So the Bride of Christ is equal to Christ, Christ is Father and the wife of the Lamb is God the Mother. And the trinity are all part of God the Father. So in other words we have a King and also a Queen in heaven, just like here on earth. The name we use to pray is very important too. And of course many things written on this site are not sweet to my ears. I must say i don't like it at all. But let me try to keep cool about it.
WMSCOG teaches many interesting things. In regards to God they teach there are 2 Gods: God the Father and God the Mother, 2 separate beings. The trinity are all part of God the Father, and also there is Mother. Just like on earth we have a King and Queen, in heaven also we have a King and Queen. And we are all children. So when the bible says God, I think of Father and Mother. Adam and Eve represent God the Father and Mother. So not only in Galatians 4:26 do we find evidence of Mother. After all Revelation clearly states Christ has a Bride. Further, in Heaven there is the tree of life, and also in the Garden of Eden. And that tree represents Heavenly Mother. Who gives life in this world? Only females and they become mothers. Anyways, I suppose I shouldn't reveal all of our teachings.
Question:
I remember the one thing my old pentecostal youth pastor would always say. Something to the effect of "you are entitled to your opinion, but it still doesn't matter." Genny, you claim that WMSCOG is a cult. Okay that is what you have decided. And part of it comes from your free will. In a way I can understand someone's free will. But have you considered all the real cults out there? I'm talking about Jesus of Miami who was a convicted criminal and now has a church and preaches there is no hell and his people get tattoos of "666." In my mind that is wild. And crazy. What about Jesus in Siberia? These people have left their lives to live in a remote area to worship this dude who claims he is the second coming jesus. Or what about Alan Miller in Australia? He claims he is Jesus. He has followers and has a way of making them cry and their bodies twitch and convulse and it seems all very demonic. He was a JW and untied himself with a prostitute and now he thinks he is Jesus. Theres another dude in the UK who is homeless but tells people he is Jesus. Theres a guy in the Philippines named Apollo Quiboloy whos claims he is the appointed son of god. And there is Moon of the unification church, although he has already past away. Just recently I've learned about these people. Its seems like they are all over. And recently these people have come to the light. I'm sure there are more out there. And whether I go to WMWCOG and you go else where, the point is these people are a scary sign. We are truly living in the last days as Jesus prophesied. And God help us.
So my question is this. With all these cults out there and other churches, is there another faith, group, or cult that follows the bible as closely as WMSCOG? (WMSCOG operates it seems only if there is scripture on it. They discern the passover and communion are very different, Sunday and Saturday worship are very different. And as we both know they even take scripture to back up having service on Tuesday. Numbers 19:12.)
Response:
ReplyDeleteYes, I have heard of those people, and I have posted links about some of them here on my blog (in this post http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/07/complete-trust-and-devotion.html).
I hope I'm understand you right. You are saying that the WMSCOG follows the Bible more closely than any other church/group/denomination, and you are asking if I know of another that follows the Bible better.
First, think about if you talked to people from those cults you mentioned, or for example from the Mormon church or the Jehovah's Witnesses, or from any Catholic or Orthodox type of church, or from any of the Protestant denominations, etc. Most likely, they would each explain how their beliefs follow God's word more closely than anyone else.
There are some major difference between them, so can they ALL be correct? Of course not. But each one *thinks* they are. Why do they each *think* they are correct? Because they have been taught to interpret God's word in the way that works with that set of beliefs.
That's why it's very hard to debate Bible interpretations, unless someone can suddenly realize and admit, "Wait, that might mean something different than what I thought, than what I've been taught."
For example, I've written about Numbers 19:12 (http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2010/08/holy-third-day.html), and it does NOT back up their reason for having service on Tuesday.
So while you see the WMSCOG as following the Bible closely, I see it the opposite.
Remember all those people in the different cults you mentioned? They are convinced the Bible teaches what they believe. You and I would agree that they are definitely deceived about that.
Is it possible that you and/or I are deceived in the same way and don't realize it? Yes, it's always possible. That's why we have to keep our minds open to seeing the clues of deception that might be there.
Question:
You clarified what I have also been taught by the WMSCOG, that they do actually believe in 2 separate Gods. They may be 'one' as a husband and wife are 'one' in thoughts and emotions etc, but they are numerically two.
The Father says, "I am God (singular), and there is no other," and "Is there a God (singular) besides Me? ... I know not one."
How do you explain this -- Was He lying when He said *He* was the only God, because if there was another God, why would He use such phrases?
Also, thank you again for taking the time to talk with me. I do appreciate hearing what you have to say. :)
Cyrus says:
ReplyDeleteGod wasn't lying when He said "I am God..." But Genny, surely you know what I might write next. Our translation says God (singular). But the original Hebrew says Elohim. And we know that is plural. And I've read your article about Elohim how the title of God is plural but rest of the verses are singular. I'm not ready to agree with you on this one yet. I'm going to research it more myself. If God is supposed to be plural then it is more than one God, until i can prove otherwise.
Next, I want to talk about Hebrews 10:1. "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming, not the realities themselves." Is the old testament a shadow? I believe so. The bible must be interpreted. In Revelation John saw the lamb standing on mount Zion with the 144000. Now is this an actual lamb? What about the law of the daily sacrifice? One lamb sacrificed in the morning and one in the evening. Does this point to Christ? He was the passover lamb in the new covenant, early in the new covenant Christian faith. What about the second coming? Well we haven't discussed this topic. But we know there is a second coming. And with all this time passed, won't there be a second lamb? A second coming late in the prophetical timeline? Or maybe its already fulfilled. What about Abraham who sacrificed his son? Who almost sacrificed his son? Is this a shadow of God who sacrificed his beloved son for the sins of the world? Hmmm. So when you quote the old testament, and say there is one God, my answer is that it is a shadow of two Gods, the Spirit and the Bride who give the water of life.
Are you gonna quote a verse from the new testament? I know you will. Lol
Question:
I was wondering if you knew of a cult that follows the bible closer than WMSCOG. I believe my church follows the bible closely. For example, i understand Jehovah's Witnesses keep the passover. They call it memorial. Now i hear that those who believe they are the 144000 will eat the bread and drink the wine or Juice. Not sure there. But the rest pass over the bread and wine. What did Jesus say? Drink of it, all of you. We all eat and drink the bread and wine. The point I'm trying to make is we follow the bible closer in that aspect compared to them. We have around 1.5 million members. We have churches around the globe. Some really big ones. We make big volunteer efforts. The messiah orchestra is top notch. We have our own multi media department. When i went to Korea I was fed 3 meals a day by the grace of my church. But that wasn't the best part. I could go on and on. What I'm trying to say is we are established and don't fit into the idea of a cult. But rather we are a faith, an established religion. All we want is to have more people to join us. Thats not so bad. What was my question again?
So if we follow the bible closer than others, is it possible we are not a cult? Rather you are encountering the [faith] of Ahnsahnghong. Did you say you've studied with us? Really? I see where you get some of your info from. And then some from NCPCOG. Did you know they were with us in the beginning and they broke away?
Hi Cyrus :)
ReplyDeleteResponse:
I'm sorry, I had trouble narrowing down what your question was. You talk about how closely the WMSCOG follows the Bible, but that is according to the way the WMSCOG themselves interprets it.
It's all very nice that you feel you've been treated well, that they have many members, and that they have done many nice community service projects. There are many other groups that also are very kind, have many members, and do nice things in the community.
I think your point is that the WMSCOG doesn't feel like a 'cult' to you. I understand that. I wonder if you have read the characteristics of cults, such as these here:
http://freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php
"How closely (or not) a group follows the Bible" is not on the list when you are looking at the psychological characteristics of cults.
If your question was about who I've studied with and where my information is from... Yes, I have studied with the WMSCOG, but I have not studied with the NCPCOG, though I have examined what I could from their website. Yes, I know that the two branches split from each other.
Now about the verses concerning only one God...
I was not talking about *our* translation being singular but about the Hebrew word being singular. When I study the Bible I like to look at the original language. I wonder if you ever do that in your studies, Cyrus. If not, you should. There are great resources out there. Try interlinearbible.com. It will show you word for word the Hebrew/Greek and English translation, and you can click on each word to explore more deeply.
These verses use the Hebrew word "El" (singular) for God, NOT "Elohim."
"For I am God, and there is no other" (Isaiah 45:22 and 46:9)
"Before Me there was no God formed; nor shall there be after Me." (Isaiah 43:10)
If you will research that more for yourself, it would be good. Use the interlinear Bible so you can see the original words. The word "God" in our English translations does not always come from the word "Elohim."
Question:
The WMSCOG teaches that Isaac (Abraham's son) was also God who lived in the flesh. Do you agree with them about this? Why or why not?
Genny, I typed out my last response on the fly. It was a little rushed. I'll switch gears here and type at the speed limit.
ReplyDeleteI never heard of Isaac was God in the flesh. I was not taught that one. I missed several study meetings so maybe I missed that one. Or we haven't gotten to that one yet. I would have to hear the teaching first. So I cannot agree or disagree. There are many many in depth teachings from my church. I haven't studied them all.
The bible is a history book but also a book of prophecy. Isaac could represent God in the flesh. I think Abraham represents God the Father. But at this point in time I cant say for certain he was God in the flesh.
But whats important is Isaac being a child of promise. Because he was born of a free man, and a free woman. Because Ishmael had a servant/slave mother. And he was not allowed to receive the inheritance. In other words Isaac represents people of God who will inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Also this teaching you are referring to is probably not directly related to our salvation.
Question: How do you know you have salvation?
Hi Cyrus,
ReplyDeleteAhnsahnghong talked about Isaac being God in the flesh in his books. I have a couple quotes here:
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/04/who-was-isaac-really.html
If you have not come across it in your study, I suggest you ask about it. You may think it's not related to your salvation, but it is. If it shows you a clue that you are in the wrong church, then it would be very relevant to your salvation.
Your question for me was, how do I know I have salvation?
I believe Jesus lived, died, and rose again, and I have accepted His payment on my behalf for my sins. This faith I have is not in words only, but is evident in the way I live my life.
New acquaintances are not surprised to find that I'm a Christian, and people who know that I call myself a Christian are not surprised if they see 'how I really live' outside of church. :) I'm not saying that I live perfectly, but I actively seek to live a life that pleases God.
This is an important question. My children often ask it -- one of them especially. She will periodically say, "Mom, I'm afraid that I will not go to heaven." She knows that, young as she is, her behavior and sttitude aren't perfect, and she wants that assurance that God still accepts her. And so we talk about it again, how you know you're saved, even on those days when you don't feel it.
Here are some verses that give us that assurance (I'll sort them for you to make it easier to look them up):
John 1:12
John 3:16-18
John 10:28-29
John 11:25-26
Acts 16:31
Romans 1:16-17
Romans 3:22-26
Romans 10:9-11
Ephesians 1:13-14
Ephesians 2:8-9
Titus 3:4-7
1 John 5:11-13
Question:
If you cannot answer the question about Isaac, then I would like to ask you about that book Ahnsahnghong wrote which denies the existence of a 'mother god.' (I remember you told me previously that you know about this book.)
I have seen that the WMSCOG admits that this book was written, but they say he wrote it to stop the wrong woman from claiming to be 'mother god.' Then later, they say, he withdrew the book so he could reveal the true 'mother god.'
What is your understanding of this? How was it explained to you, and what do you think about it?
Ho ho ho ho...
ReplyDelete"...in the wrong church..." I already know what my question will be. I like how O'leary says to Lang "I speak the truth and that's when it gets testy..." Lets not get to their level. Or lets not stay there too long.
Give me a minute. I need to do some stretching...
You have a different version of the book "The mystery of God..." But by chance I found what you are talking about. Now check that out. Its written there. I must of read it but missed the meaning. Its says that. I know my church hasn't put emphasis on that but like you say its there. Thanks for the realization.
My book also says prophetically Isaac stands for Jesus. So that makes sense. But remember it is written that Jesus said He wouldn't go to the feast of tabernacles, but secretly he went. John 7:8. Same thing perhaps? Wasn't Jesus troubled and distressed and sorrowful before his arrest? Jesus was God. He was also human too. It doesnt bother me too much that this is written about Isaac. I'll have to see what they say.
Next, about "this book" you are talking about. I've been educated about the situation. The explanation makes sense. I can understand why Ahnsahnghong wrote the book. Yeah I got the inside information. I can see how someone would think negatively about the situation. Basically the situation arose and came about without approval. It wasn't supposed to happen until a certain time. So basically the door is closed. The book says the door is closed. And now the door is open.
I've seen the evidence of the truth of the matter. Its good with me. I suppose its for members only. Is this good enough for ya?
Where did you get your info from NCPCOG? Do you know how many members they have?
Question: I'd like to talk more about salvation. But first let me ask. Where is the right church and why?
Now, Cyrus, when you said,
ReplyDelete"Ho ho ho ho...
"...in the wrong church..." I already know what my question will be. I like how O'leary says to Lang "I speak the truth and that's when it gets testy..." Lets not get to their level. Or lets not stay there too long."
Did you mean to sound rude, or did I just misunderstand your intent? (Just rhetorical, not my question for today.)
When I said, "If it shows you a clue that you are in the wrong church, then it would be very relevant to your salvation," it was not intended as an insult. After all, aren't you trying to convince me I'm at the 'wrong church' also? (rhetorical again)
Moving on... I find your explanation about 'the book' (you know, the anti-mother book) to be, well, not very clear. Either you are assuming I (and the readers here) know everything about the situation, or you don't want to explain in more detail, or you're not supposed to explain more to non-members, or something...
Right now, I'll assume that you agree with the explanation I was given, which is that Ahnsahnghong did write the book denying a mother god to stop the 'imposter,' then withdrew the book saying yes, now I can show you there is a mother god after all. It may make sense to you, but it doesn't to many others.
You've asked two questions, on two topics. The deal was one question / one topic at a time. :) I'll answer the question labeled "question." The other you can save for later if it's still important to you.
You asked, "Where is the right church and why?"
If you are wanting a particular name like Presbyterian or United Methodist or Southern Baptist, I'm sorry but I won't give you one. The true Church is the body of true believers around the world, regardless of the denominational label they give themselves. It has to do more with the hearts of the people than the name on the door.
But of course, you don't want a church that teaches you falsely. The characteristics of a true church would include these teachings:
--There is one God (Deut. 6:4)
--Jesus is God. He was crucified for our sins and rose again. He will return. (Phil. 2:8; 1 Cor. 15:14; Acts 1:11)
--The Holy Spirit is God and works in the world today. (Acts 2:17-18)
--The Bible is God's word. (2 Tim. 3:16)
--We are saved by God's grace through faith. (Eph. 2:8-9)
--We should seek to live a life that pleases God. (Gal. 5:13)
--Our relationship with God should be personal and meaningful, not simply a ritual to be performed. (Mark 12:30)
There are some things about the way different churches worship and teach, in which variety is ok. Romans 14 expresses that well. It's ok to worship on a different day or play a different style of music, for example.
About Isaac and lying...
You mentioned that Jesus said He wasn't going to the Feast of Tabernacles, but then He did go. In some manuscripts (and translations show this), Jesus says in John 7:8, "I'm am not yet going up to this festival." Notice the word "yet." Jesus did not lie. He was not going with His brothers. He was going later.
Question:
I understand that you don't have a problem with God lying (as Isaac, or as Ahnsahnghong with that book, or as Jesus (with the way you interpret John 7:8)). Do I understand you correctly? Do you believe that God lies? Please explain.
Dear Hal,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your interest in this conversation and your desire to participate. To streamline this, though, I'm going to redirect your comment and split it between the two posts that are very relevant:
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/04/who-was-isaac-really.html
and
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2010/08/holy-third-day.html
Genny, pardon me back there. I didn't intend to be rude. When you mentioned the wrong church you hit a cord there. Its alright though. And I was trying to make a joke. Don't mind me. But any ways. I'm not trying to convince you that you are in the wrong. I do want to point some things out. Maybe we can talk about what's right instead of who's wrong. Does anyone believe they are wrong in their religion? God will judge us. He is the good judge. I think what matters is what God says is right, not what we think is wrong.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe God lies. God is righteous and holy and we are to be like God. But I see the point you are trying to make. Please don't suppose I don't have a problem with lying as you put it. I was using John 7:8 as an example. The foot note says "some early manuscripts do not have - yet." Jesus said I am not going, he stayed, then he went to the feast in secret. I was going to compare that to Ahnsahnghong. The book was not intended to deceive people. It was a response to the situation that arose from one person. You could say that book expired. What did Jesus say? Stop judging by mere appearances, make a right judgement. John 7:24. That book was written for a specific purpose. If I remember correctly those books were supposed to be returned to Ahnsahnghong. Not everyone returned them. That book was not written for you or me. And now that book is being used today for a different purpose. And as for the issue you present about Isaac. I understand the point you are trying to make. But i don't understand how its related to my salvation.
Question: How is the interpretation of Isaac related to my salvation? When Jesus said unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you cannot have eternal life... For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink... (passover bread and wine).
It's ok, Cyrus. I just want to make sure that we understand neither of us is intending to be rude, and that neither of us should jump to such a conclusion. :)
ReplyDeleteI do agree that it's no good to only talk about what's wrong without talking about what's right. However, sometimes a person needs to realize what they thought was right is actually wrong. Then they can move on to seeing what's really right. (That looks confusing in print. I hope it's understandable.)
The interpretation about Isaac is related to your salvation in this way...
If you rely on the WMSCOG to interpret the Bible for you, that also includes their interpretation on how to achieve salvation.
The issue about Isaac shows one place in which they are wrong. It may seem small to you, but it is one clue. There are other mistakes too, which are more clues that something is wrong.
If the WMSCOG, which is supposedly God's only true church, lead by "God in the flesh herself," makes these mistakes, then perhaps they don't have the correct interpretation about salvation either. If you come to a point of realizing this, then maybe you will be open to correcting your idea about salvation.
The issue with Ahnsahnghong and the book is a little different than the issue with Jesus in John 7:8 because of what he said. If you've read the translation, you'll remember that Ahnsahnghong took the same verses the WMSCOG uses to prove 'mother god' and said they do not.
He also said that the New Jerusalem (which the WMSCOG claims is 'mother god') will not come down from heaven until 1000 years after the end of the world. Remember that when he said this, Zahng Gil Jah was alive on this earth.
(Here is the link to the translated chapters for anyone who needs it:
http://www.examiningthewmscog.com/archives/problems-with-new-jerusalem-the-bride-and-womens-veils-by-ahnsahnghong/ )
This is different than saying, "I'm not going [yet]" and then later, "Now I'm going." It's not the kind of thing that expires. I hope you can see the problem here.
Question:
So you do agree that God does not lie, and that we should not also. (There are commands against lying after all.)
What is the position of the WMSCOG church about lying? Is lying ever ok, maybe depending on the purpose? Would God ever lie? Please ask around at church, especially the leaders, to make sure you have a clear understanding and don't just assume you know what they'll say.
My experience with the WMSCOG has shown that they do believe a "righteous lie" or "white lie" is ok. Is that your experience?
Sorry for the multiple questions. I'm just trying to restate it in different ways so you understand it. (I think that's the teacher in me coming out. :)
I'm not an expert in Korean Genny. But these whites lies you speak about are hard wired in korean culture. There is a double yes double no rule. So if you ask someone in korea if they would like to go to a movie. They would say no. But you know they want to go. Then you ask them again then they say yes. Now if you tell your buddy, i really like your jacket. They would tell you here, you can have it. Now if you say yes. I think they would have to give it to you. Now if you ask you buddy, can i give you $1000. Technically they should say no, until you ask again. Or someone may ask you can i walk you home? when they really dont want to. So they would lie but it would be just to be polite. Understand what im talking about? The lies come from their culture. I've seen these whites lies. Its mainly a social thing. I understand it. The pastor and I are more "tight" now, buddy buddy now that I have a better understanding. For me i dont like lies. Everybody does it. But I'm not going to let this be a stumbling block. Now I think WMSCOG holds the highest standard for a christian religion in regards to the bible. I'm impressed by what they do. If they believe for example the cross (of no effect) is an idol. Then that is a higher standard. Thats what I like.
ReplyDeleteI suppose i could go on and on about the book, and the situation. I've seen the evidence. I've seen Ahnsahnghong's hand written notes. I've talked to the elders in my church. I dont need to be convinced of what the truth is. You see a lie, i see the truth behind the situation. I haven't read through this whole site but just by what I have read, I don't think I can really make you see what I see. So if this book and the interpretation of Isaac is a problem for you then that what it is supposed to be for you.
Jesus said to Peter blessed are you Simon ... For this was not revealed by man, but by my Father in Heaven.
Question: How do you know you have salvation in regards to your actions and faith?
My husband and I are experienced international travelers, and I understand the cultural differences you are thinking of. But those are not the kind of lies I'm talking about.
ReplyDeleteHere are some hypothetical examples of what might be "righteous lies" or "white lies" in a case like this:
--Lying to a family member about where you are going (or where you've been) instead of telling them that you really spent the time at church, evangelizing, at Bible study, etc.
--Lying to your spouse about how much money you are giving to the church.
--Not being honest with a government form or application, maybe because you don't want to risk hindering God's work with a rejection.
--Being misleading about the name of your church when speaking to a potential convert.
--Lying about the reasons ex-members have left or what happened to them.
Those are just some possible examples. There could be many others, but I'm not talking about cultural politeness here. But if you are done talking about lying, I'll move on. I would suggest, though, that you store this in your memory bank in case it comes up in your experience in the future.
On to your question... You asked me previously about how I can be assured of my salvation. I'm not sure how this question is different, except that this time you mention "actions."
Like my answer before, I am sure of my salvation because I am sure of my faith. In regards to my actions, my imperfect behavior is not cause for God to take away that salvation. I am not saying that I don't care whether I sin or not--yes I do (and should) care. But I am not worried because my salvation is not based on how successful I am at reaching flawless behavior, thoughts, and actions.
If you believe that only people with perfect behavior and actions will be saved, then that would make for an empty heaven. I don't know anyone who fits that description (and I expect you don't either). Even if I could think of someone who might, I don't know their thoughts and heart, and sin lurks there too.
Here are a few verses:
1 John 1:8-10
Romans 7:15-25
Romans 8:1
Besides, the perfection that God asks for, He has already provided for me Himself.
Hebrews 10:14, "For by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
Question:
How did you get involved with the WMSCOG--how long ago did you join, and what drew you to them?
I understand what you are saying about lies. I mean can't speak for those members who have spoken in the manner which you have outlined. They will be judged like I will be judged by God. Let God be the judge because He is good, righteous, and patient. We are all human here. And we at the WMSCOG are seeking God's favor in our human condition, that is while living in this sinful world with our sinful nature. Some members are making that effort to be perfect before God best they can. Some of them are very zealous. As for me I don't do those things that you have outlined. I'm open about what I do with others outside the church. I receive quite a lot of flak and scorn by those around me. Sometimes even when I mention that I off to church. I wonder if its the persecution factor that cause other members to behave in the manner you have outlined.
ReplyDeleteAs for me I'm still a baby in the faith of WMS. I'm still learning to walk so to speak. I've got lots to learn. I was preached to by some members. They invited me to church. I jumped right in and I've been going ever since. Nothing special. What I've noticed is many members who join go but their people around them don't want to go with them, kind of like you sister. (I read somewhere your sister is a member) Thumbs up. But through WMSCOG I am a changed man. I am walking the path of the righteous. I'm putting off transgressions of the flesh and the spirit more than ever. Thanks and praise to God (Father and Mother).
As for actions of faith... I mean do you keep the sabbath day (saturday)? Do you pray twice or three times a day? Do you keep the 7 feasts of God? Do you share your faith with others? Do you endure persecution in order to do the will of God? Do you study the scriptures daily? Do you turn off your favorite show and go to church? Things like that. As we know faith without actions is dead. I'll let you answer these ones on your own.
Question: Today and tomorrow for those on that side of the globe (depending on your time zone) is the day of Atonement. Are there any Sunday keeping christians who will be keeping this sacred day or will most of them be missing out do you think?
From what you've said this time, it sounds like we agree about lying being a sin. Yes, God will be the judge of each of us, but it would be awful to lead others astray by teaching that lying is acceptable. I would hope that such behavior (anywhere) is only a failing of the individuals and not taught and encouraged by leaders.
ReplyDeleteI've experienced "flak and scorn" too because of my faith and 'religious behavior,' and yes from my own family and friends too, so I can relate to you about that. :)
I can list my actions of faith for you if that's what you were wanting. Some of them will line up with what you find important, and some will be different, I'm sure.
I cannot speak for *all* "Sunday keeping" Christians on your question, but I can think of some who would be meeting and/or celebrating concerning the Day of Atonement, and others who (although they do not have a special service) have studied it and understand its significance and Jesus' fulfillment.
It is not ignored by all modern Christians as you might be thinking. In some congregations it's in the foreground, and in others it's in the background, but that doesn't mean it's not important.
Question:
I was going to ask something else, but first I wish you would share a little more about your experience because you weren't very specific in your answer. When you said you are a baby in the faith, how long would that be? Less than a year? And what made you "jump right in" and keep going? Was it some particular doctrine, or some particular prophecy, or the friendliness of the other members, or ... ? I'd just like to know a little more about you as a person. :)
Sorry, Cyrus, I just have to make a slight correction. As I was thinking more today, I realized that some of the churches I was thinking of who would have a service for the Day of Atonement would actually be "Saturday keeping" Christians (non-WMSCOG though).
DeleteGenny, good day. I asked the day of Atonement question because when I went to church in the past it was unheard of. We didn't observe it at all. Some pastors would say such things like "all you need is Jesus" or "just believe and you are saved." Or if you ask them why don't you keep the sabbath day you might get an answer like "you can worship on any day" then they'll go worship on Sunday. What I trying to say is I believe there is more to faith in God than going to church on Sunday. And the Sunday service is stuck following their traditions. For example Jesus set us an example John 13:15. And there are many many things Jesus did that many churches dont do. They don't even eat the bread and wine on the passover like Jesus did. Rather they make a play, the pastor preaches and they call it easter which is a name not even written in the bible. For me Sunday is not good for me anymore. Thanks to God. My idea is that most christians dont observe the day of atonement. But I know there are some out there. But the day of atonement being in the back ground is an interesting answer. Of course I'll let that be between you and God.
ReplyDeleteAnyways. As for me I'm your regular sabbath keeping individual. I like this church because they keep a higher standard. No cross, 7 feasts of God, structured services, great explanation of the prophecies, and I like how they are active in the community and door to door preaching. I say I'm a baby learning to walk because I have much learning to do and I'm learning to walk the path of sacrifice. I've been going for less than a few years. And I believe God was preparing me for this church since I was young. Like gaining a love for Asian culture to like wearing a suit to the love for bible prophecy to love speaking with others about my faith etc.
What was the something else question?
Hey, Cyrus. I agree, there is a lot more to our walk of faith that just going to church, whether it's Sunday or Saturday.
ReplyDeleteYes, most Christians I know personally don't have a service specifically for the Day of Atonement, but yes there are some who would. I'm sorry the pastors didn't meet your need for an explanation. There are others who would have explained to you how Jesus fulfilled the Day of Atonement, and the Passover, and the Day of First Fruits, the reason we worship together on Sundays...
When I said that the Day of Atonement is in the background, I meant that the focus is more on Jesus and His fulfillment, than the shadow He fulfilled. I'm sure you are familiar with "copy and shadow." Think about whether the shadow or the reality is more important.
There is a book by Kevin Howard and Marvin Rosenthal called "The Feasts of the Lord." I'll quote two paragraphs from it for you, because I really like the way the authors put it.
"The Bible likens the feast days to shadows which prophetically point to the person and work of history's most stellar individual--the Messiah of Israel (Col. 2:16-17). Together these feasts outline the work of the Messiah from Calvary to the messianic Kingdom. He alone is the source and substance, whereas the holy days are merely the shadows cast by His indelible mark on history.
"This can be illustrated by a husband who returns home after a long trip. His heart may beat faster in anticipation, seeing the outline of his wife's shadow as she comes to the front door, but he does not embrace her shadow. There would be no satisfaction in that. Instead, he steps through the doorway and embraces her in person, rather than her shadow."
I notice you didn't ask a regular question this time, so I'll take one of your extra questions from before. Previously, you said,
"Question: Let me challenge you a bit. We keep the sabbath day on Saturday. And you keep the Lord's day as it is called on Sunday the day Jesus resurrected. We too worship on Sunday and especially the day Jesus rose from the dead. The sign we have between God and us is the Sabbath. Now what sign do you have between you and God since you don't have the sabbath?"
If you also worship on Sunday, then we also worship on Saturday. We do have Saturday events, besides personal worship Saturdays (and really every day). But I know that's not what you are asking. :)
The Sabbath was the sign between the Israelites and God (Ex. 31:13). Circumcision was also a sign (Gen. 17:11). I wonder if everyone in the WMSCOG also gets physically circumcised.
For New Testament believers, Mark 16:17-18 speaks of signs that accompany them. I'm not in a snake-handling church, nor have I drunk poison, but the other signs I have seen. Other than that, I would have to say baptism (Eph. 4:5 and 1 Cor. 12:13).
Question:
My favorite radio station is K-LOVE. They play songs from contemporary Christian artists. All the songs are Bible-based, uplifting, encouraging. They talk about God and His love for us, our love for Him, worshiping Him, life situations like hope, forgiveness, loss, outreach, etc. You can stream it online at klove.com.
At the beginning of the year KLOVE issued a 30 day challenge--listen for 30 days and see what happens. Would you be willing to start listening? If not for 30 days, maybe for a week, maybe a couple days? If not, why not?
If you are worried about the content of the songs, I've been paying attention recently, and I'm pretty sure you would agree with the lyrics of most (maybe almost all) of the songs. You can check out the lyrics of the songs on top rotation here: www.klove.com/music/songs
If I could guarantee a set of songs that would have nothing objectionable to you in the lyrics, only things that we would both agree were Biblical, or if I could somehow replace the name "Jesus" in the songs with "Ahnsahnghong"? Would that make a difference?
Hmmm... Good argument. Saying that all of the feasts, and the Sabbath are fulfilled through Jesus on Sunday sounds like a good answer. Sounds convenient too. However, and I stress HOWEVER, Jesus would have set us a different example. Jesus fulfilled all the sacrifices. Yes. But He kept the Sabbath day. He kept the 7 feasts of God. He established the new covenant through the passover. The first feast of God. And what did Jesus say on the last and greatest day of the feast of Tabernacles? The 7 feasts of God are all new covenant. Therefore they are not a shadow. Apostle Paul kept the Sabbath. He followed Jesus Christ. What else? Jesus said the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath. To worship on the Sabbath day is to worship Christ. Clearly. Now what did the writer of Hebrews say about the Sabbath. We know that this book is new covenant. And chapter 4 is titled " A sabbath-rest for the people of God." Hmm... Okay the people of God have a specific day of rest. 4:7 says "...God again set a certain day, calling it Today..." Okay there is a certain day. One specific day. (Anyways, bear with me here Genny, you know where Im going with this.) Okay where was I? 4:8 says "God would not have spoken about another day." 4:8 "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God." 4:11 "Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." But i like a different translation because its more weighty, and it says 4:11 "Lets us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will PERISH by their example of disobedience."
ReplyDeleteNow I'm gonna say this for argument/debate sake. And Im gonna compare these verses to Sunday service. Dont get offended.
According to these verses this can be applied to people who don't keep the sabbath day, and very possibly Sunday service. Genny I don't want to follow the people who dont keep the Sabbath day and their example of disobedience. I dont want to perish. The people of God have a sabbath rest. A specific day and God called it today. And God Did Not call it Sunday.
Now this is for your comment about circumcision: I wonder if all the people who keep Sunday worship instead of the seventh day sabbath will fall. Hmmm. I wonder if they are not...
Anyways. I like this debate.
Now as for your question. I used to listen to k-love type of christian radio. I like bible based, uplifting,and encouraging. Sounds superb. I've probably heard some of their songs. Hell, I even have some of those songs kicking around the pad. I used to listen to it all, like jars of clay, newsboys, three days grace, oh, not those guys, seven day slumber, switch foot, jackie valesques, uh, delirou5?, down here, skillet, audio adrenaline, nicole nordeman, chris tomlin, kutless, etc etc etc. You get my point. I've been there and done that. For me to listen for 30 days i probably could. But i dont see the point of doing want i used to do. Its true, i eventually stopped listening to that station. I found some new songs to listen to now. Right now i dont have the time to do the 30 day challenge. Not faithfully anyways. This site and all its slander doesnt do much for me. It true, I think its slander. My opinion. But i dont think k-love will do anything either. It would just remind me of my younger days and church and things. But i appreciate the idea. I love trying something new.
Question: Sorry to say Im starting to run out of questions here. Maybe I'll pray about it in the meantime. How is your sister doing in her faith? I'm curious. Technically she is my sister too. We share the same faith. Would you say hi to her for me? Her brother Cyrus from zion. If thats okay.
I like this conversation too, Cyrus. :) I think it's great to be able to debate like this in a respectful and friendly manner. Thanks again.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you know all those Christian artists and wouldn't mind listening to them. I had wondered if there would be a problem because they are Sunday-keepers, and non-WMSCOG, no matter their message.
I can update you about my sister's current state in her faith only by what others have told me. She still faithfully attends services and events and seems to be very dedicated. She does not wish to talk with me about anything church related, even if it is friendly and casual. For example, when we talk about, "So what did you do today?" I might say, "Oh [such and such] and went to [an event] at church." But she will not say anything like that to me. And don't think it's because she wishes to avoid an argument, we stopped arguing about churches long before we stopped talking about God and church in general. So I would say hi to her from you, but I honestly don't think she wants to hear it from me. Sorry.
On to more weighty matters...
I don't remember saying that Jesus fulfilled all the feasts and Sabbath "on Sunday," but He did fulfill them, yes.
I don't understand at all what you meant here:
"Now this is for your comment about circumcision: I wonder if all the people who keep Sunday worship instead of the seventh day sabbath will fall. Hmmm. I wonder if they are not..."
The point I wish to make about circumcision was in relation to the sign you talked about (being the Sabbath). Circumcision was also called a sign between God and His people. Jesus was also circumcised (as an example), so that's why I wondered if all WMSCOG men were circumcised also, as a sign of being God's people and following the example of Jesus.
I have been told by other members that the sign of circumcision changed and it is no longer a physical thing any more but has a spiritual meaning. If that's so, then it follows that the sign of the Sabbath may also have changed to a spiritual meaning.
I'm not trying to turn you away from worshiping on Saturday. I believe there is nothing wrong in worshiping Saturdays instead of Sundays. If that is what God has put in your heart to do, then do it.
However, we should not judge each other because our salvation is not based on that.
Colossians 2:16
Romans 14
And when Gentile believers were coming to faith in the early church, they were not required to keep the Sabbath (Acts 15). If Saturday-keeping were essential to salvation, it would have been mentioned there.
This is a website that explains more about Saturday vs. Sunday:
exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/tabid/53/Default.aspx
Even if you don't agree with it, I hope it would help you understand better why people worship on Sunday instead of Saturday, and why it's ok.
Question:
You've mentioned that the feasts are very important to you, and this is the season of the fall feasts which occur in the seventh month. (Maybe you've been expecting this question? Here it is...) Can you explain why the WMSCOG has occasionally kept the 7th month feasts in the 8th month?
Here's the chart:
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1MsoweMAuX9TFiNpzg6Oi2d1CERWFyrqwHp183-H_G9U
(You can verify all the information yourself.)
Genny. Hello.
ReplyDeleteAs for all those artists I mentioned. I used to listen to them. I don't anymore. I still have some CDs kicking around. But I noticed something. Now that I joined WMS those radio songs have some weight to them. Those songs weigh on my soul. And I dont think its a good thing. And the message is different too.
Anyways. Moving on.
You said quote unquote "Jesus fulfilled the Day of Atonement, and the Passover, and the Day of First Fruits, the reason we worship together on Sundays..." And you quoted that book the feasts of the lord.
Then I said "on Sunday." Okay I see, maybe not "on Sunday" but he resurrected on Sunday. Isn't that why many keep their Sabbath on a different day being Sunday. I wonder if i could change Saturday to Thursday, Friday, Sabbath day, Sunday...
But you like the idea of Jesus fulfilling all of it, for Sunday.
I dont think that is right. I dont think that is the truth.
Jesus fulfilled all the sacrifices on those holy days. Yes. The daily sacrifice has been abolished or rather fulfilled. Right? The 7 feasts are new covenant and not a shadow. I believe the churches today are stuck in their traditions. They could never change their way. Or could they? Im talking about the majority of christian churches. While there are some who differ and even some keep a rotating worship day apparently. But am I right with this comment or am I wrong? Are churches stuck in their traditions?
The 7 feasts are new covenant. The law of Christ. Therefore we should keep them. Would you agree?
And do you agree with what Hebrews chapter 4 says? There is a sabbath rest for the people of God, a certain day calling it today. God called it today, and not any day. So then there is a difference between Saturday and Sunday. And the book of Hebrews was written after Jesus established the new covenant. You quoted Colossians 2:16. Fair enough. But who is "anyone?" Non believers? Are they specifically referring to sabbath keepers. Let me not judge you. Let the bible judge you. :)
I can check out those sites. See whats going on there.
No Genny we dont follow the example of Mary and Joseph with circumcision. We follow the example of Christ Jesus, and Christ Ahnsahnghong.
Did we really keep the feast in a different month? Or didn't we? We observed the feast of Tabernacles. Hold on a second. We keep the sabbath day, and you keep a different day. Technically you should be okay with this kind of information because you worship on a different day anyhow. Right? :) Where do you get some of your info from I wonder? Anywho.
So many questions here.
Well Genny I'm thinking, maybe, we should start wrapping things up. I do want to say thanks for letting me speak my mind on your site. You're not gonna create a new site now titled "encountering the member Cyrus of the WMSCOG" are you? :) We all have to stand before God on judgment day. You may have to answer to God for this website. And I may have answer to God for my comments on this site. Like when used the word "hell." Lol. And also my transgressions and mistakes. And dont worry about your sister. I think she is in a good institution. WMSCOG is a good place. We want people to join us. You think she is in a cult and you say you can find out her "current state." I think her current state is salvation. Love her and support her and dont persecute her, not even behind her back. Your situation is the same as my family. They dont want me going and they probably agree with you. And your sister's situation is the similar to my situation. I have the support of my church but not much from my family. And when I met other members from around the globe, many were in the same situation as your sister. I believe your sister has a special quality that God sees and she was chosen by God to be part of this church. Therefore you should be happy for your sister. But Im afraid you dont see it the same way.
Question:
Shall we wrap things up here?
I'm sorry you misunderstood me, Cyrus. It would have been more clear if we were speaking in person.
ReplyDeleteThe way I meant that line was like this,
"Jesus fulfilled the [Day of Atonement], and the [Passover], and the [Day of First Fruits], the [reason we worship together on Sundays]"
not
"Jesus fulfilled the [Day of Atonement, and the Passover, and the Day of First Fruits, the reason we worship together] [on Sundays]"
So now that you think about it, "those songs weigh on my soul. And I dont think its a good thing. And the message is different too."
If that's because they were written by "Sunday-keepers, and non-WMSCOG," as I pointed out, then you should also reconsider some of those songs in your New Song book. I have the new 2010 version, and the songs in the appendix (#397 to 471) are written by the same kind of people.
The sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 that you mention is not the same as the weekly sabbath. God calls it now "today," so you don't have to wait to enter that spiritual rest, you can have it today.
You said,
"Did we really keep the feast in a different month? Or didn't we? We observed the feast of Tabernacles. Hold on a second. We keep the sabbath day, and you keep a different day. Technically you should be okay with this kind of information because you worship on a different day anyhow. Right? :) Where do you get some of your info from I wonder? Anywho."
Yes, the WMSCOG really did keep the feasts in a different month, in 2005, 2008, and 2010. My information about when the feasts were kept is straight from the WMSCOG. You would see the links if you read the chart.
This is not about *me* keeping a "different day" in Sunday--it matches with my faith. This is about the *WMSCOG* not following *their own* standards of keeping the feasts as they require.
Are you trying to avoid this question? You are not conveniently trying to "wrap things up" because you don't want to answer the question are you?
Question:
My question about the 7th month feasts in the 8th month still stands. But if you don't want to answer that (Why not? Are you afraid of what you might discover?), then I have one more question for you before wrapping things up (assuming you have run out of question for me, which seems unlikely, since you had so many in your message--I can't address them all at once, one topic at a time please).
Here's my alternate question for you, it's like one you asked me...
What is required for salvation, and how are you sure that you have acquired it?
(If you want to say "obedience," please be complete and list all the things you need to be obedient about, like Passover, Sabbath, etc. Don't leave anything out. And if it's something optional, you know, nice but maybe not required, like "being kind to animals" or something like that, don't include it. These are the absolute essentials, I'm looking for.)
Thats a quick response. Right on.
ReplyDeleteI was just telling you how I feel. We can continue. I'm running out of questions and was thinking of wrapping things. You've made interesting points. Thats good.
As for those songs, we sang amazing grace, and it seemed good. Im just telling you how I feel when I listen to those radio songs. Its the same with regular songs, crew love or dont worry child for example. I can feel it on my soul. If I sense that weight then I turn it off. Its just my thing. But if I listen to a WMS song that talks about God giving rest on the sabbath day, it feels sweet in my soul. It just me I guess. What Im saying is I notice a difference.
I suppose I could compile a list for salvation requirements. But I can tell you what I believe personally. Salvation comes from God. We receive it. If some one takes a verse out of the bible and says to themselves " I believe therefore I am saved " then I believe they deceive themselves. We dont give salvation to ourselves. Jesus said to the criminal beside him on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise." So by the word of God we will receive salvation. God also spoke about others and said they shall never enter my rest. Now can I truly say that I have salvation? Personally I will never say I am saved because I havent heard God speak those words to me. I have a hope for heaven and I want to earn God's favor. Therefore I will practice the will of God, such as keeping the sabbath, and the 7 feasts of God. Im doing more than that. But ultimately salvation comes from God. God decides. We will be judged according to our deeds. Theres the parable of the ten virgins. Half were not ready for the bride groom. A pentecostal pastor told me that half the believers will not be ready and will not receive salvation. My WMSCOG says a similar thing. For me Im looking to be ready with my lamp and oil. I think there is lots of requirements for salvation. I'm gonna think about it first. And Im not sure today if Im going to list them all. Partly because this site is negative.
And if you havent already noticed Im having a change of heart with our conversation Genny. Nothing you said really. But God making the change. For now I'm gonna sleep on it. Talk to you later.
When you said this is what you "personally" believe about salvation, did you mean it's different from the WMSCOG? Or does what the WMSCOG teach match what you personally believe? Either way, I was very sad to read that you are not sure of your salvation, and that you don't believe you can ever be sure. You don't have to live in that uncertainty.
ReplyDeleteYes, it is God who gives us salvation. We don't give it to ourselves. It is a gift from God, and we accept it.
It is available to everyone. If you want it, you don't have to wonder if God will give it to you or not.
Romans 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes..."
[notice "everyone"]
And you don't have to wait until the end to find out if you've done enough "good deeds" for God to decide in your favor. When you read the Bible, you should notice that the epistle writers were sure of their salvation -- they weren't waiting and wondering if God would decide 'yes' for them. You can have the same assurance and peace about it too.
Ephesians 1:13-14
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."
[notice the guarantee]
1 John 5:13
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."
[you can know!]
Even on those days when you may wonder if you really are saved, you can remember what God said and have that rest and peace about it.
1 John 3:19-20
"This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."
And Jesus Himself said that He would not turn away any who come to Him, and *everyone* who believes in Him would have eternal life.
John 6:37-40
"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
If you truly believe that God would turn away anyone who sincerely believes in Him, then you have to ignore many verses that say otherwise.
Romans 10:9
"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
It doesn't say "you might be saved," it says "you WILL be saved."
I'm still thankful you been willing to have this conversation, Cyrus, but if "having a change of heart" about it, means that you are ready to quit... well, I'm afraid you have bad timing for that. You see, I just asked you a very challenging question about the 7th month feasts kept in the 8th month. People (including me) following our conversation may get the impression that you wish to leave because you are avoiding the question (for one reason or another).
Now, I understand that you may not know the answer, and that it may take a little time for you to find out, but I would suggest you consider continuing the conversation at least until you are able to answer the question. It will leave a better impression of you and the WMSCOG.
If you'd like to keep talking a little longer, but you're not ready to address the feast problem, then I'd like to talk more about salvation. I won't ask a specific question -- you can just respond to the above verses.
:-o
ReplyDeleteOh really Genny? Is that right?
Relax, whats all this really about?
Now lets say I dont give you want you are looking here. Let say I truly avoid your question. Will it stop WMS worship services? Will we lose our faith? Will we stop reading the bible? Will the moon be abashed and the sun ashamed? Will you stop attending services? Will you stop labelling WMS as a cult?
Sounds like you really what this one answered.
First lets recap here.
My September 27 comment: I asked "what was the something else question?"
Nows thats when I was feeling I should wrap things up. I didnt ask a normal question.
Your September 28 comment: You asked something about replacing jesus with Ahnsahnghong. "What would be the difference?"
My September 28 comment: i said "Sorry to say Im starting to run out of questions here"
You last Sept 28: You asked the 7th 8th month question.
My Sept 29 comment: i said "bla bla bla bla... We observed the feast of tabernacles.... bla bla bla... ba da ba ba ba.... Shall we wrap things up?
Now I wasnt trying to avoid your question. I wanted to wrap things up 2 days prior. Regardless of any question you asked I would have done the same. But look at the result now. Check it out.
Okay so what did you say again? You said you got this info about the feasts straight from WMS. Really? So let me get this straight. A member gave you this info so you could post it on this site? Is that right? And your link says "authored by genny." Unless I got you all wrong here. I guess its similar to my opinions and thoughts and ideas posted on this site. But in a way different. But why not this time you get your question answered by the person who gave you this info. Then post it in this conversation. I like that. Lets do that then discuss the answer. But there is something i want to see actually. Its something thats better left unspoken. And to make a point. But I see something thats not right. So I think this approach would be better. Hope you understand.
Getting back to salvation. Im not uncertain about my salvation. Its more like my approach to salvation. I dont think its good for me to assume I have it because I dont want to be complacent. The devil is still out there prowling like a roaring lion. God's people have the victory. But we are not there yet. What does Jesus have to say, "you diligently study the scriptures because you think...you possess eternal life." or "I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my god.." or "not everyone who says to me lord lord with enter the kingdom of heaven"
Genny, your deeds are complete in the sight of my God. You do not keep the sabbath day. For one.
You get my point. Right?
And considering this website I figured maybe Im not going to list all the salvation requirements. Its too much. But like I said before. We believe salvation comes from the Spirit and the Bride who give the water of life.
Cyrus, when you said, "Shall we wrap things up" after "I'm starting to run out of questions," I took that to mean "I'm running out of questions, are you?"
ReplyDeleteBut when you then said, "I'm having a change of heart with our conversation," I took that to mean, "I don't want to be here any more."
If that was incorrect, then fine. I just wanted to make sure you had considered the perspective of the readers here.
You said,
"You said you got this info about the feasts straight from WMS. Really? So let me get this straight. A member gave you this info so you could post it on this site? Is that right? And your link says "authored by genny." Unless I got you all wrong here."
You are having trouble believing me? Here's the story of how I began to be aware of this problem: encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2010/09/big-calendar-mistake.html
I'll give you a summary of how it came about. I know that my sister will be at extra services during a feast week, and I don't want to call her in the middle of a service. She was not busy with the feast at the time I expected her to be (this was in the fall of 2010).
After realizing that something was wrong with the fall feasts in 2010, and already being intrigued by the WMSCOG calendar (which didn't seem to match up quite the same as the Jewish calendar), I went to the main church website (english.watv.org) to find out about it.
They have news stories that include the dates of when the feasts were kept. For example, this news article shows the Passover this year (2012) was kept on April 5: english.watv.org/news/content.asp?idx=1698
So I gathered all the information they had, made myself a chart, and started researching the Biblical calendar (which was very interesting! There are a lot of different 'Biblical calendars' being used in this world--more than I expected!). That's how the pieces started coming together.
"Authored by genny" on the document simply means that I wrote the introduction and assembled the information in the charts. I wasn't copying anyone else's work. It doesn't mean that I invented the data, if that's what you are thinking.
I did ask my sister what was going on. It was not a good experience. Here's where you can read what happened with that:
encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2010/09/what-happened-with-latest-approach.html
No one has been able to answer this question yet. If you don't answer, will it devastate me? No, but it will be another confirmation that maybe there is no answer (at least no answer that's good for the WMSCOG).
If this question is not answered, will it bring down the WMSCOG? No, I'm sure there are plenty of members who will continue on, for one reason or another, despite such a red flag.
If the question is satisfactorily answered, will that turn me into a WMSCOG believer? Not necessarily, there are still other problems, but it would give me the opportunity publish a correction, and it would be a nice plus for the WMSCOG.
Getting back to salvation, it's a good thing to not become too complacent. I don't want to be lazy in my faith either. You mentioned 3 verses...
Yes, I do study the Scriptures (John 5:39), and they testify to Jesus. I have not found them to testify to Ahnsahnghong at all.
From the perspective of salvation-by-faith, I read Rev. 3:1-3 to show that the church in Sardis had deeds but lacked faith (a reputation of being alive, but really dead). They were an empty shell, hypocrites, looking great from the outside but missing the heart of it.
And Matt. 7:21, "only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Here's where we differ of what that 'will' is. If we were to get into what is the will of God, what are the commands of Jesus, that would be another long conversation. It's up to you if you want to pursue that. Just remember that it's ok to disagree on some things about how we should live (Romans 14).
(Sorry, I wrote too much. I have to split it in two comments.)
DeleteMy request for you to list salvation requirements was mainly for your own benefit. If you believe (as the WMSCOG teaches) that salvation comes from obedience, then you need to have a list so you know what is required. Without a complete list, you will never know if you have done everything needed.
There's one big problem for salvation by works (obedience)--there is always something more. The list will be hopelessly long, and it will be impossible to obey 100% of it %100 of the time. Failure is inevitable. Paul spoke of this in Romans.
In "Tangled," Rapunzel saw the clues but didn't realize them until later. I pray that even though you have seen these clues here and don't believe them, that one day they will come together for you, and you will find true freedom in Christ.
Genny. At least we can understand that there is room for misunderstanding each other since we are limited to these typed words.
ReplyDeleteThis is my third time typing out a comment. I keep on losing my words on this screen. I hope Im not sending half typed comments here.
I didn't notice there was an error in the feast of tabernacles as per your question. We kept the feast. I cant comment further. I'll have to look into it more. But I cant promise you what you are looking for. But thanks for clearing things up by your story about the dates.
You said Ahnsahnghong wasnt in the bible?
Okay where was Jesus written in the old testament?
True freedom in Christ? I have that. We have that.
Nice plus? A nice plus is always good.
Genny. How can I type how I truly feel here? I think your feast of tabernacles question is besides the point. But today I dont have the effort in do this now. We have 2 different faiths here. And we disagree very much. But lets see what path to take here. We can continue talking. But the way I feel tells me I have some praying to do. If God doesnt want me to continue. If this conversation is not God's will anymore then I must obey. Understand? I love a good biblical debate. I tell ya I got that tug on my heart that says wait. So I'll get back to you.
You can see Jesus in the Old Testament by the prophecies and the foreshadowing. But we don't have to get into a new topic right now.
ReplyDeleteI do understand you want to take some time to consider whether to continue the conversation. It has been about a month, and I'm sure you and I both have other things that need our attention anyway.
Whether you'd like to keep going or not, or pick things up again at a later date is fine. You an always reach me by email: knowhispeace@gmail.com
I appreciate having the chance to talk with you like this. It's not just for you and me, but it benefits all the readers here as well to increase their understanding of the WMSCOG.
And I do hope you'll look into the feast problem (and the other errors and mistakes, like the historical inaccuracies) on your own. When you see them, don't just tell yourself, "Well, I'm not going to let that be a stumbling block, getting in the way of my faith in 'father and mother.' It's not related to my salvation after all." Yes, it is, because it shows 'father and mother' are not worthy of your faith in them as gods.
You probably didn't like that last paragraph, but I mean to speak the truth with love. I care about your soul, which is why I have to say these things, even if you don't want to hear them.
Write back if you'd like, whenever you'd like. I wish you well, Cyrus.
Ya I hear ya. I really hear that one sentence. Man, I think my ears are on fire. Your words not mine. I've said many words already Im gonna have to give an account for. Well me finish up my feast of tabernacles. And I'll write back next week.
ReplyDeleteI love discussing the bible. That will never change. Im not shutting the door. But what do the readers want to know?
You know Im pro-WMSCOG. If only you could see the faith of some of these people. Im very impressed. I wouldn't be surprised if some ascended to heaven. No joke. Makes me envy their faith. We'll be left behind genny, and the readers too. (Okay thats a joke.)
Or maybe we should talk more bible based topics. Like how does the ark of the covenant testify about christ?
PS. Thanks for being concerned for my soul. But you cant save me. You and you church cannot give me the water of life. We'll talk more a little later.
And if only you could see the faith of some of my Christian friends. Amazing!
ReplyDeleteToo bad the level of faith and sincerity in a belief system is not an accurate test of the truth of that belief system.
I visited the Mormon temple in Salt Lake City once and looked through the museum. I overheard a lady expressing her faith to a friend, and she was so sincerely full of faith she was crying.
The image is an enduring reminder to me that it is possible to sincerely believe something that is actually false. And for us all (me too) to never be afraid to test our belief system.
Anyway, let me know when you are ready to talk again. We can decide on a topic later.
How are you Genny? Whats happening?
ReplyDeleteIm back from the harvest festival. So what do you want to chat about?
You say you know people with faith. What makes it so amazing? Im checking to see which commands of God they keep.
Busy but ok, thank you. :) How are you, Cyrus? Glad to see you back.
ReplyDeleteThe people I have in mind who have a strong faith trust in God whether they are in a time of prosperity, hardship, grief, joy, uncertainty, or any other season of life. They pray and praise God with heartfelt sincerity, and they live out their faith every day (not just one morning each week). I'm guessing you would say the same kind of thing about the people you mentioned as having impressive faith.
There are other people who have a strong and sincere faith, but their faith is in Buddha, or Muhammad, or Hinduism, or Mormonism.... What makes my faith (in Jesus) or your faith (in Ahnsahnghong) different? It's who we put our faith in.
I'd like to hear about why you choose to put your faith in Ahnsahnghong and the WMSCOG. Can you summarize your most compelling reason(s) -- Why are you a follower of Ahnsahnghong?
Hi Cyrus. Haven't heard from you in a little while. Maybe you just had a busy week, but I thought I'd clarify the last question in case it looked too broad for you.
DeleteI was thinking about why I believe in Jesus. There are many reasons, but if I had to boil it down to the most compelling, I would say it's the Resurrection. Likewise, there are probably many reasons you believe in Ahnsahnghong, but if you were to pick the most compelling, what would it be?
Hope you are doing well.
Busy. Helping family with things.
ReplyDeleteI believe in Jesus. We believe in Jesus. We kept the passover as Jesus directed us. Jesus set us an example, and we do as Jesus did during the passover. We ate the bread of life, we drank the cup for forgiveness of sins. We did this at the appointed time Jesus commanded us to do it. We did this in remembrance of Him. But there is a difference. Ahnsahnghong gave us the bread and wine. So we know Him as Christ.
But just like Sunday, communion is different.
Times have changed. The ressurrection is pretty amazing to say the least. I dont know how I would react if I was one of the eleven. Stunned and amazed? But the church Christ Ahnsahnghong established is amazing too. Since I'm a member I see it all. Really awesome. I would move to Korea in a heart beat.
For me i can only imagine Jesus through the bible. But i can see the work of Christ Ahnsahnghong. I've heard him preach. Wow. To truly answer the question you asked I would have to experience the ressurection like i experience WMSCOG. So Im comparing my imagination with my experience. Just how actions speak louder than words. My experience with WMSCOG is greater than my imagination. I met Mother. Wow. Christ Ahnsahnghong is greater.
At the last day the dead in Christ will rise first, and the author says "we" will be caught up to meet Christ in the air. They will not die. Nice!
Glad you are ok. :)
ReplyDeleteWhat I meant by the Resurrection was that the evidence we have that supports the resurrection of Jesus is very compelling. I wasn't there to witness it in person, of course, but there is enough evidence for me to believe that it really happened. And even though there are other reasons I believe in Jesus, that is the cornerstone of my faith.
I've read through your response several times, and I'm sorry but I can find the answer to my question, so I'm not sure if you understand what I was asking.
I'm not asking about your faith in Jesus. We share that, right? I'm asking about your faith in Ahnsahnghong (or the WMSCOG). If you had to choose one thing (or two) to share that is the most compelling reason you believe in Ahnsahnghong, what would it be?
If you already wrote it in your response, please forgive me for not being able to pick it out. Maybe you can clarify it. Thanks.
Further, yes Genny Im doing well. Im having an awesome weekend. :-)
ReplyDeleteBut Im back to work soon and that is going to be bla.
As for your first question, why do I follow Ahnsahnghong? I think my church has a higher biblical standard. They say this is holy, lets do it this way according to what the bible says. They give me a better explanation of the bible. While most christians go to church, i have the privilege to go to Zion. The temple of God. I think thats pretty awesome. And such things are written in the bible. Christ Ahnsahnghong gave us the passover and the 7 feasts of God. Awesome. He gave us rest on the sabbath day. Awesome. My soul is clean. Awesome. Salvation. Double awesome. WMSCOG is current with the times. As some things expire. You wouldnt dress and talk like you did in the 70s or the 80s. Everything I have with WMSCOG came about from His work. Going to church on Saturday feels far better. Then I work on Sunday. So good. My soul is revived somehow (spiritually unseen something good). When I compare my old church to WMSCOG, there is more weight on my soul on sunday. Its a spiritual thing. I have freedom on saturday in zion. :-). But the most compelling thing was my trip to Korea. The truth, the life, all the heavenly spiritual unseen quality, the goodness, the blessing. Its not something I can truly explain. Its for me to know. All of us who went know. But i can say you know dont what you are missing. Sorry Genny. I wish you could know. Im afraid you will never know. :-(
Good feelings are, well, good. But my church makes me feel good too.
ReplyDeleteAnd you believe your church teaches you accurately about the Bible (Passover, 7 feasts, etc.), which is good (for you). But I believe my church teaches me accurately about the Bible too.
Good feelings and agreeing with interpretations are all nice, and it's good you have that, but they have a subjective quality that isn't very good in using as evidence. Is there any reason for your faith that is more objective, anything that doesn't rely so much on feelings or interpretations?
Its not just feelings as you put it. Its the reality of whats written in the bible. Or the fulfillment of prophecy. The 7 feasts of God during the time of moses, of Jesus, of Ahnsahnghong, written in the bible. I could realize, Ah this is what God's people did during the life of King David. Minus the sacrifices which Jesus fulfilled once and for all.
ReplyDeleteThe evidence? The evidence is in the people. The unity, the joy, the love, the order of worship, the acts that show their faith, The messiah orchestra, good looking people, the good looking temples even.
I suppose you have good looking people too. You got the crystal cathedral somewhere over there. Looks nice.
Let me see the scriptures here. Hebrews 4:4: "and on the seventh day God rested from all His work." We too rest from our work on the seventh day, just like God.
Jesus said "I have eagerly desired to eat this passover with you... This is my body... This cup is the new covenant in my blood." At another time Jesus said "whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life." This is what we do. This is the evidence. What does the bible say? We keep the passover as Jesus did. This is one indicator we have eternal life as spoken by Jesus.
Unfortunately Jesus wasnt talking about communion. Jesus spoke about passover bread and wine, not Sunday communion. Understand the difference? Also Sunday is a day off the mark. God didnt rest on sunday. Even when Jesus was crucified on friday (preparation day) His body rested in the tomb the next day which was the sabbath day, then he resurrected on sunday. Further Jesus sent out the 72 two by two to preach the kingdom of heaven. We too go out to preach.
One day I went to a pentecostal pastor and asked him, do you know what day it is? He said no, what? I said today is the day Jesus ascended to heaven. He didnt know. No clue.
Understand what Im saying? We believe just like you do. But we also keep the commands of Jesus, we do as Jesus did, we believe His words, we practice his words.
Our actions in relation to the scriptures is the evidence. The evidence is we practice the truth. The bible is the truth. The bible is the truth right? Make sense?
And good looking people too. Lol.
Lol. We have good looking people too. :) And good looking buildings, great musicians, unity, joy, love, acts, etc.
ReplyDeleteWhen you say, "The evidence is we practice the truth." That is the "truth" according to the way the WMSCOG teaches it. I can say that I practice the truth also. We interpret the Bible differently. The question then becomes, which interpretation really is the truth? We could argue all day long (and longer) about Bible interpretations.
So far, you are still giving me reasons that are based in interpretation. You believe in the WMSCOG because they follow the Bible, but they follow the Bible according to the way they interpret it. You know they interpret it correctly because... why? Because you agree with it? How about something outside of that circular train of thought?
Can you offer any evidence about why you trust Ahnsahnghong's (the WMSCOG's) interpretation of the Bible? Something more objective, maybe historical, that doesn't depend on interpretation? If you want people to abandon traditional Biblical doctrine that has been well established for century upon century, you need something firmer.
There is objective evidence *against* Ahnsahnghong. I was wondering if there is any objective evidence *for* him.
If you need time to think about it, maybe you have a question for me in the meantime?
PS -- For any readers who need help remembering the difference between "subjective" and "objective"...
objective = not influenced by feelings or interpretations; based on fact; unbiased; verifiable
subjective = relating to a person's emotions or prejudices; existing in the mind; opinion; a person's interpretation of the facts
Hi Cyrus. Just wanted to check in with you. I pray you were not negatively affected by the hurricane.
DeleteIn case you haven't seen, "Eve" has left a couple questions for you on another post (encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2012/08/proof-that-world-mission-society-church.html). Maybe you (or another WMSCOG member) can help with those?
Hope to hear from you again soon.
PS -- To the Anonymous (not Cyrus) who commented here on October 23 about objective vs. subjective, thank you for the encouragement. :)
Hello Genny. Ive been away, busy with something. Something good :) I wasnt affected by the storm. Whoa, what a storm. I am at a loss for words here.
ReplyDeleteYes, I should think about your questions. Evidence? Christ Ahnsanghong gave us rest on the sabbath day, the 7 feasts of God, and the passover bread and wine just like Jesus did. Its all biblical. But really, Im not exactly sure what you are looking for here. DNA evidence? JJ. Christ Ahnsahnghong established Zion, the temple of the Lord. I could give you all the prophecies about him, but you dont believe. I dont have a problem with WMSCOG. The problem about this is within you I think. Your spirit? Im just guessing here.
So what outside circle of thought do you want to bring up?
Traditional century upon century doctrine? Does it stand up to the bible? I believe we lost the truth over time. What did Jesus say about traditions?
Anyways we will talk more later. But what exactly are you looking for? What evidence? Peter didnt have evidence.
Praise God! I've been watching the news and concerned about my friends in that area. Happy to hear you are not affected.
ReplyDeleteOk, about evidence... When Peter said Jesus was "the Christ, the Son of the living God," (Matt. 16:16, is that the verse you were thinking of?) you could make the case that he at least had some miracles as evidence (but God did miracles through prophets too).
However, consider it from human perspective at the time. Jesus was crucified, dead, placed in a tomb, and the disciples (including Peter) were cowering in fear (John 20:19). From Peter's perspective, whatever Jesus had said in Matt. 16 was a moot point. The person they thought was the Messiah was dead. If the story had stopped there, people would have said, "Peter, you say Jesus is the Christ and I'm supposed to believe you because Jesus said you were right? You are talking in circles. Don't you have any other evidence?"
But then Peter saw the risen Christ. That became the evidence. And that's the all-important evidence today that points to Jesus as God. People have tried to explain it away with arguments like the swoon theory, the stolen body theory, the wrong tomb theory... But only Jesus' physical resurrection can explain the evidence of an empty tomb and disciples who so firmly believed that they were willing to be martyred. (Here's a good book for more info: http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Christ-Journalists-Investigation/dp/0310209307)
When I started studying the "prophecies" about Ahnsahnghong and other WMSCOG doctrine, I looked for something historical or otherwise objective that might back up the claims--at least one unique thing that could push me from outside the circle of thought to inside. I didn't find anything. On the contrary, I found objective evidence that would push me outside if I had been caught inside. (I hope that makes sense.)
I thought maybe it would be the Passover. If the Passover had really disappeared and Ahnsahnghong 'brought it back' that would be evidence. But it didn't disappear, and he didn't bring it back.
Then I thought maybe it would be the 40-year-reign-of-David prophecy. If Ahnsahnghong really preached 37 years to complete the 'reign of David' that would be evidence. But a reading of the Bible showed me clearly that was a misinterpreted prophecy.
I also thought maybe the "Pope as Antichrist" theory (even though it's not original to the WMSCOG) might provide some historical evidence that the WMSCOG was on the right track. But no, history shows their facts to be wrong.
Then, maybe it was the keeping of the calendar--was the WMSCOG the only church in the world to have the 'correct sacred calendar'? No, they made mistakes with that too, as evidenced by those years of keeping of the 7th month feasts in the 8th month.
So, alright, good works aren't really a test of true doctrine because many people do good works, but maybe the WMSCOG's good works in the community are exceptional? Well, something is wrong with their President's Call to Service Award, so that has turned into evidence against them rather than evidence for them.
Those are the kinds of things that could possibly be considered evidence. Can you think of anything now?
And by the way, "traditional" does not always imply "man made" or "bad." Read, 1 Corinthians 11:2. "I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you." Basic Christian doctrine (example--there is only one God) has been well-established.
Okay Genny. I'm putting in a request for the evidence. But isn't the work of our church based on the bible? The bible is truth. We practice the commands of the bible. All I can say is our acts and the words of the bible is the evidence. I never met Christ Ahnsahnghong. I heard him preach. I've seen the, oh thats right, the evidence. :) I've studied and its good. But actually Christ Ahnsahnghong brought me the passover, and the sabbath day to my home town. The majority of churches dont celebrate the true passover, rather Easter. Back in tha day I went to church on Easter, being I realized the passover. The website lists all the nations and cities where our temples are established. Now the nations have ample opportunity to attend if they choose. I choose to. Mount Zion sanctifies the nations.
ReplyDeleteAh, you want the evidence? Hmmm, I think I understand the issue here. All I can say is what you are looking for is something between you and God. You will have to pray about it. I believe what you are looking for is given from God. I can't give you the evidence then. Understand what I'm trying to say.
But at the appointed time we will all stand before God and give an account. We will be judged. By His goodness and patience we will be judged. There will be people from all faiths, and denominations. Catholic, Mormon, Lutheran, Jehovah's Witnesses, WMSCOG. But not everyone will be allowed to eat from the tree of life and enter eternal life. God will decide. Its not for us to decide.
There is a prophecy of the seven churches. Each church had a different circumstance. But according to the scriptures it sounds like the few will be saved, and not the majority. I'm talking about the world as a whole. I believe that people will be saved from denominations over the course of history. The different churches I believe have a purpose in God's will. But today is a different time from a century ago. Today people are claiming to be Jesus. Yikes.
But WMSCOG has a unique purpose from God. All I should say is join us, study with us, and worship with us. It is good.
Obviously you have studied with us. So you have learned some of our teachings. If you are not convinced, then thats up to you. Not everyone will join us.
Do you want to take the traditional (centurified) doctrine and pull it apart? Lets see what stands up to the bible.
Ok, Cyrus. I understand that you do not have the kind of objective evidence I'm looking for. I listed for you some of the objective evidence that is against the WMSCOG. Doesn't it cause concern for you at all? Do you have anything to say about it?
ReplyDeleteYes, there are people claiming to be Jesus today. Those followers are convinced that they are following the second coming Jesus. Don't you think it would be wise for those people to look at some objective evidence concerning the "Christ" they've put their faith in?
We could look at some mainstream Christian doctrine, but I think it would be more worthwhile to look first at salvation. You said, "I believe that people will be saved from denominations over the course of history."
That goes back to something we discussed previously. What are the requirements for salvation? How do you those people from different denominations will be saved? I think that's what we need to talk about next, and I think it will be related (eventually) to whatever mainstream Christian doctrine you wish to "pull apart."
But we should really go back to our original format of having just one question (topic) to ask at a time, to help keep things easier to follow in this format. So, my question for you this time is...
Do you have any response to the objective evidence I presented against the WMSCOG in my last message? Doesn't it cause you any concern at all? Why?
Genny, I hear what you are saying. Lets go back to the original plan. Its cool.
ReplyDeleteSo you mentioned the 40 year reign of David, the pope, the feast in a different month, the service call award, the passover. Those topics dont cause a problem for me.
The passover didnt disappear 100%. There were the jewish churches who keep it. And the odd church too. I would guess 90% of churches do not keep the passover. So most nations had an opportunity to keep it this year through my church. I would say the passover was brought back. Because most churches observe easter without the bread and wine and its not according to the words of Jesus.
The pope? The seventh day adventist believe the pope is the anti christ. Just look at all their idols in the church. Its against the law of God. Did you say that one nation wasnt completely removed. I'll have to look into it more. There are more indicators too. If you look at the roots of their feasts, you'll see a mixture of christianity and paganism. Christmas and the birth of the sun. Easter and the day of first fruits. Worship day on the day of the sun god, the golden cup, Mary holding baby jesus like the statues of Fortuna and Jupiter (Mother son worship). What about the statue of mary on top of a spiral type building that represents the tower of babel. If you look into the catholic religion you might find some interesting things.
The service call award? Im not sure about that one.
The 40 year reign of David? Makes sense. There are much more prophecies that point to Christ Ahnsahnghong. I cant deny the prophecies. You may not have studied them all.
The feast in a different month. We still kept the feast. Sometimes there are 13 months in the sacred calendar and the feasts are moved to keep them in season. I have to study the sacred calendar more since its more complex than i first thought. Most churches dont even keep the feast of tabernacles. Not keeping the feast I believe is far worse.
As for having concern. I need more than that to cause concern. Zion is a safe place. It a safe spiritual place. The calm from the storm. Also, I believe I have the seal of the living God. In others words Im a member and Im not going any where. Understand what Im saying? We study the bible often, my faith is strong, Zion is safe and I see things differently. I believe my church does whats right, to the best of their ability. Im connected to the church, its for me, and what they teach is sound.
I know you see things different from how I see things. And you are looking for evidence. But i think what you are looking for is given by God. Its something I personally cannot give you. I think what it boils down to is a spiritual matter. I can preach to you and say keep the sabbath day, and you have a Heavenly mother, and its all written in the bible. But the rest is between you and God. In other words those who are meant to join us will join us.
Question: Who do you know that has kept the passover? Your sister has.
Thanks for addressing each of the concerns, Cyrus. I am surprised that you need even more than that to cause concern. We can move on to a different subject (or go into greater depth with one of these), but first I'm going to give you links so that you (and readers) can get more information...
ReplyDeleteYou said,
"The passover didnt disappear 100%. There were the jewish churches who keep it. And the odd church too. I would guess 90% of churches do not keep the passover. So most nations had an opportunity to keep it this year through my church. I would say the passover was brought back. Because most churches observe easter without the bread and wine and its not according to the words of Jesus."
If the Passover did not disappear, then there was no need for it to be brought back. And why would the WMSCOG say it 'disappeared' when it didn't? (Not my question for the day, just making a point.)
This is related to your question for me, so I'll answer it now. Who do I know that has kept the Passover? You mean on the 14th day of the 1st month, right? And Christian, I assume?
I have a friend who is a Messianic Jew. I believe the Messianic Jews would satisfy your requirements. As for other churches, did you know about these? (I am not endorsing these churches, just showing that they do keep the Passover as you describe.)
http://www.churchofgodalfred.com/index.php?p=1_25_Easter
http://www.cogwriter.com/
(These are other "Church of God" churches, not the WMSCOG.)
You said,
"The pope? The seventh day adventist believe the pope is the anti christ. Just look at all their idols in the church. Its against the law of God. Did you say that one nation wasnt completely removed. I'll have to look into it more. There are more indicators too. If you look at the roots of their feasts, you'll see a mixture of christianity and paganism. Christmas and the birth of the sun. Easter and the day of first fruits. Worship day on the day of the sun god, the golden cup, Mary holding baby jesus like the statues of Fortuna and Jupiter (Mother son worship). What about the statue of mary on top of a spiral type building that represents the tower of babel. If you look into the catholic religion you might find some interesting things."
I do not agree with everything in the Catholic Church, but you are getting distracted from the main point -- the WMSCOG (and those who teach the same theory) have historical mistakes in their teachings about the Pope being the Antichrist. Here's a summary:
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/09/pope-is-not-antichrist-summary-of-is.html
Also, if you are getting your information from the book "Babylon Mystery Religion" (or any book that used the same sources), you should know that author pulled his book from publication because of errors. Read his statement here:
http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html
You said,
"The service call award? Im not sure about that one."
The President's Service Award ... well, *neither* the WMSCOG or Kim Joo-Cheol are eligible to receive the award as shown on the WMSCOG website. Here's more information (read the second half of the article):
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/11/letting-your-light-shineor-seeking.html
You said,
Delete"The 40 year reign of David? Makes sense. There are much more prophecies that point to Christ Ahnsahnghong. I cant deny the prophecies. You may not have studied them all."
I have a whole series here about the prophecies. If I'm missing one, please let me know. You can find them filed under April 2010, or look in my index under "Prophecies concerning Ahnsahnghong."
Here's the one about the 40 year reign of David:
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2010/04/examining-prophecies-davids-throne-part_17.html
One problem here is that David's *was* reign was split into two parts, but not what you'd expect to see fulfilled as 3 years for Jesus and 37 years for Ahnsahnghong. The two parts of David's reign were 7 and 33 years.
You said,
"The feast in a different month. We still kept the feast. Sometimes there are 13 months in the sacred calendar and the feasts are moved to keep them in season. I have to study the sacred calendar more since its more complex than i first thought. Most churches dont even keep the feast of tabernacles. Not keeping the feast I believe is far worse."
Not keeping the feast is worse that keeping it at the wrong time?! You claim to be following a god who is here in the flesh running your church personally, and you accept that kind of mistake from her?! (Again, not my question, just making a point.)
The feasts are never moved from the 1st and 7th months. If they were, the Bible would say so. In leap years, the extra month is added at the end of the year when needed to start the 1st month off in the right season. There is no effect on the 1st and 7th months.
Just for convenience, here is the link to the charts (which I wonder if you have really examined):
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1MsoweMAuX9TFiNpzg6Oi2d1CERWFyrqwHp183-H_G9U
Question:
I'd like to talk more about what is required for salvation. Imagine this situation. You and I happened to meet in person, but just while we were greeting, I am hit by the bullet of a drive-by shooter. I am lying there, on the sidewalk, bleeding (but conscious) with only a few minutes left to live. What would you tell me that I needed to do for salvation?
(PS--If you'd rather, you can imagine a stranger instead of me. :)
Genny how are you doing? All is well? You left me alot to comment on. I hear what you say. Talking religion can be a touchy subject. And I dont always tread carefully. So forgive me. And I can almost hear your displeased tone. Lets be cool either way. What does your church teach? Love, mercy grace, and forgiveness. Lets give each other these while we talk.
ReplyDeleteI'll answer your question here. Then I'll make my comments right after, i need to look up your articles.
Genny, you are funny. You are a stranger regardless. God forbid that would ever happen. But I believe God would make a plan for our salvation before we pass away. So in that situation, you should have been given the time for salvation already. You should have salvation already. What could I do in that situation? Call 911, say a prayer on your behalf.
Do I have time to pull out the emergency passover bread and wine, call the pastor for a stat baptism? :)
You should have your salvation in order. What does the bible say? Is salvation on the day of someone's death? Nope. Salvation is today.
For me it easy to forget my spiritual life and focus on this worldly life. Like work, stress, bills, the news, family, friends, the game etc. There are too much distraction out there. We are to be ready. God is #1. For me Im turning off the TV, reading the bible and spending more time for prayer. Im trying to get those distractions off to the side.
Since we are talking about time. What about this idea. I got this from the internet, not from my church exactly. Matthew 25. My version says: the parable of the ten virgins. It says "At the time the kingdom will be like..." So during a specific time the door will be open, then it will be shut. Someone on the internet said this talks about salvation. A time will come when the door will be shut. So weather its in your life, or for the people of that time. Do you believe in the closed door to salvation? So the situation you made up, I would say that would be the door closing for you. There would be no more time, for baptism, or preaching, or the sabbath day. I would pray. If I could quote scripture I would. We believe salvation comes from the Spirit and the Bride.
Do you want to give me the requirements for salvation first? I think we already have an idea what we each believe. But regardless of who keeps all the commands or not, salvation is still granted to us or not from God. We have to do the will of God. So by our choice we are to do God's will. Make sense? Cyrus out. Be back in a while.
PS genny,
ReplyDeleteDid your question come from a youtube video? I think i saw that one too. :).
There are more prophecies you havent listed there in April 2010 that point to the founder of our temple, Christ Ahnsahnghong. The bible is so vast. But if I gave them to you, would you look for a way to disprove them? Maybe I'll let them stay within the church. There are quite a bit missing. Christ Ahnsahnghong said there is a treasure hidden for ages. So let it be for our church members.
But getting back to David's throne. In the book of Daniel, its prophesied that Jesus (the anointed one) will establish a covenant for many during one seven. But in the middle of that seven he will be cut off. And we know Jesus died for our sins after 3.5 years after he was baptized. And stephen was stoned at the 7 years mark to complete that seven. So david being king over judah for 7 years is right because Jesus was given one prophetical seven too. So Jesus for 3.5 years and Christ Ahnsahnghong for 37 seems good to me.
That book babylon mystery religion, i never heard of it. Maybe I'll look it up. But i wasnt quoting it. So you dont believe the pope is the anti christ? Thats fine. But I have some questions about that. But later. Lets finish talking about salvation, from my previous comment.
The question was, do you believe in the closed door idea of salvation?
And to add to you question. I would also say to you believe in the Spirit and the Bride who give the water of life, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.
I know I havent commented on everything back there. But my time is now up. Chat with you later.
Genny, its me again. Its been a week so I thought I would check back. Ive been busy. And I see you didnt leave a comment for me. So then you must be busy too. Well I appreciate you letting me speak my mind about my church and the bible. I like the challenge you present about the bible. Since Im waiting for ya, how does it go for you this week? All is well?
ReplyDeleteWhen I said its far worse not keeping the feast of tabernacles, I had Zechariah 14:17 in mind. No rain.
Next, I came across something recently. Isaiah 66:23 says: from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me, says the Lord. This chapter also talks about the new heavens and the new earth. The Sabbath day hasnt changed. And the sabbath hasnt changed on the new earth either. Not even Jesus changed the Sabbath day. Only the people over history changed it. We are still required to keep it. Because God appointed that day, sanctified it and made it holy. The Sabbath day which is saturday for us is a holy day to God. Change is good. I jumped on board and now I am keeping. Its the will of God.
So when we talked about requirements for salvation, we should find out instead what the will of God is. I would say the sabbath day is one.
Hi Cyrus. Yes, last week was very busy. Thanks for checking on me. Except for the point about the feasts at the wrong time, I did not mean to sound 'displeased.' I'm sorry if it came across that way. But I was stunned at your answer about the feasts.
ReplyDeleteYou are right--there is a lot here to comment on in our recent messages. I'm going to hit just a few things. If you'd like to continue talking about those points of anti-evidence, let's address them in their separate relevant articles. I think it will help streamline things here and we can get back to one question at a time.
Point about the prophecies--You mention that there are some 'missing.' I don't believe any that are 'missing,' even if they were true, would prove that Ahn was the 2nd coming Christ. If he has already proven false, and if the WMSCOG has already shared their most convincing 'prophecies,' why would any that are hidden in the church make a difference? If you think I have made errors in the prophecies I have written about, you can comment in those articles (under April 2010).
Point about David's throne--You said, "And stephen was stoned at the 7 years mark to complete that seven." Where does that information come from? Can you provide a source, because I haven't found that anywhere. We can discuss this point more here: http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2010/04/examining-prophecies-davids-throne-part_17.html
Point about the feasts--We can talk about that more here:
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2010/10/feast-of-trumpets.html
or here:
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2010/09/big-calendar-mistake.html
Point about the Call to Service Award--I just saw a WMSCOG video ("Come to Heavenly Mother") which features this award with Zahng Gil-jah's name on it. Unless you can assure me that Zahng is a United States citizen, then that now makes 3 of those awards which the WMSCOG is ineligible for but displays anyway. We can talk more about this here:
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/11/letting-your-light-shineor-seeking.html
You said, "The question was, do you believe in the closed door idea of salvation?"
Is that your question for me? Or did you think that was my question for you?
Just in case you meant it for me... I do not believe in the 'closed door,' a time when it will be impossible for people to be saved even if they want to be. The only time the door to salvation closes on a person is when they die.
My question for you was if someone only had a few minutes to live, would they be able to receive salvation? What would you tell them they had to do?
It is similar to a question I read in a book. I haven't seen it on youtube, but there is a lot out there, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was something similar there too.
(By the way, I don't consider you a stranger, even though I wouldn't recognize you by sight if we met on the street. :)
Your answer confirmed that you believe in salvation by works.
Yes, 'today' (everyday) is the day of salvation, but what if today is also the day of your death. Do you believe God would turn someone away if they didn't have time before they died for the pastor to come and give the Passover bread and wine and perform a baptism?
So now we get back to that list of the commandments of God that are required for salvation. Are you ready to pursue that?
You started the list with the Sabbath (Saturday). What else is on the list? Go ahead and write the whole list please. We don't have to talk in-depth about each item, I'd just like to see a complete list, if that's possible.
Hi there, Cyrus. Hope you've been having a good week. I've been thinking more about that list of requirements and thought it might help if I started a list for you. Here's a list of requirements from a variety of churches. (You may find some familiar.) If any seem contradictory, it's because they are extremes from different churches. So how about if you go through the list and add or subtract according to what the WMSCOG teaches?
DeleteAnd if you think any of these things on the list are silly or wrong, remember that there are reasons behind each item. They are not simply arbitrary. Here's the list...
*Go to church every Saturday.
*Go to church every Sunday.
*Don't celebrate Christmas or Easter.
*Must celebrate Christmas and Easter.
*Don't celebrate birthdays or any other cultural or national holidays.
*Don't salute or say the pledge of allegiance or serve in the military.
*Must keep Passover.
*Must keep all the feasts of God.
*Must tithe.
*No makeup or hair-coloring.
*No tattoos, ear piercing, or other body modification.
*Women must wear a head covering.
*Women must wear a skirt (even for athletics).
*No brightly colored clothing, just plain solids.
*Sleeves to the wrists, skirts to the ankles, high neckline.
*No jewelry (wedding band ok, maybe).
*Women must have long hair or not cut their hair.
*No musical instruments in church.
*No televisions or computers in the house.
*No alcohol, tobacco, drugs, or caffeine.
*No blood transfusions.
*No treatments from doctors.
*No sex outside marriage, or 'unnatural' sex.
*No cohabitation for unmarried couples.
*Don't drive cars or use other modern conveniences.
*No secular music.
*No rock-n-roll-style Christian music.
*Keep the Old Testament dietary laws.
*No social dancing, movie theaters, R-rated movies, or pornography.
*No swearing.
*Must take communion.
*Must not take communion.
*Must be baptized.
*Must be baptized by full immersion.
*No divorce, remarriage after divorce.
*Must regularly preach door to door, at the mall, etc.
*Must spend time in the mission field.
There are more out there, but I hope that's enough to get you started.
Hi Genny. How are you? You've given me lots to comment on. Which is good. You've made some good points.
ReplyDeleteWhere shall I begin?
Stunned? Dont be. According to the book of Zechariah God will inflict a plaque on the nations who do not celebrate the Feast of tabernacles. So that was why I said its far worse not to celebrate it. I celebrated it regardless with my faith. So I dont believe I was in error. But I hear what you say.
As for the prophecies about Ahnsahnghong, did you study the prophecies in Genesis (apart from Melchizedek), in Isaiah chapter 25, in Malachi, in Revelation chapter 3, chapter 10? and etc. I was saying some prophecies are missing from your website. There's more prophecies but you are not convinced regardless.
God knows the end from the beginning. God knew I would join the WMSCOG. As for someone recieving salvation on the day of their death, I believe its very possible for someone to receive salvation. But I believe God will make a plan for your salvation before hand. God requires some things. I believe for one its the attutide of the heart. What did the criminals say to Jesus on the cross? One said "save yourself and us!" and the other said "remember me..." Wasn't one then saved and the other not saved? Just look at what God says to Israel in the books of Jeremiah and Isaiah. He says keep my commands and be careful to keep them. Today is different but today is similar to the days of the prophets.
Anyways, for Stephen being stoned completing that seven. I can't remember where I learned that from. Unforntunately I dont have a source for you. I learned it somewhere. I think it was during one of our studies. I think one of my old friends mentioned it. I also read it on the internet some where.
Also, just wanted to know what you thought about the open door, closed door theory.
Ultimately, salvation is between you and God. I believe some people are decieved about salvation. They believe they have it but they are decieved about the truth.
I believe Sabbath day is huge. I didnt realize it before. But now that I know I should keep it then I must keep it fully. So when I was young I worked on the sabbath, I didn't observe it. You could say I might of desecrated it too. I didn't see it as a holy day. But now I'm different.
Here let him give you more info on the Sabbath. This is more old testament stuff. But its still revelant:
Interesting. However, since the time Jesus went to heaven, the Gentiles, you and me are allowed to join Israel for salvation. You know what I'm saying?
Let me think more about your list here. I dont want to be the one to draw the line and say only these people are saved. God decides on judgement day.
However, there are people who don't know the truth. But the ones who know the truth shouldn't neglect it. Like the Sabbath day and the 7 feasts.
I believe the 7 feasts and the sabbath are very important. Are we not looking to seek God's favor? We should do God's will. Baptism yes. And the words of Jesus: baptize in the name of the Father, in the name of the Son, in the name of the Holy Spirit. What are the 3 names?
Talk to you soon stranger. :)
PS. No jewelery? Man I got such a nice watch. I got my eye one this sweet tie clip too. Now what? Lol.
LOL about the jewelry. :) The one about not dying hair really got me. I think I'm too young to have all these gray hairs, and I'm happy hair dye was invented to fix this problem!
ReplyDeleteThe reasoning behind not wearing jewelry is that it is prideful, drawing attention to yourself, showing off. 1 Peter 3:3 says our beauty should not come from outward adornment.
The reasoning behind not dying hair is also a matter of pride, and not being satisfied with the way God made your (my) hair. Proverbs 16:31 says that gray hair is a sign of splendor. Since it is mentioned specifically like this, then some say it would be a sin to dye my hair to hide grays. But even just to change the color would also be vanity and pride.
I think your question for me was "And the words of Jesus: baptize in the name of the Father, in the name of the Son, in the name of the Holy Spirit. What are the 3 names?"...
I know the WMSCOG teaches that if the name of the Father is Jehovah, and the name of the Son is Jesus, there must be a name of the Holy Spirit, and that in this "age of the Holy Spirit" that name is Ahnsahnghong.
First, the Greek word for "name" in that verse doesn't just mean a proper name, like "Bob," but also character, fame, and reputation. There is a lot more detail in what the word "name" implies. You can read it from the Greek lexicon here: http://biblesuite.com/greek/3686.htm
All of the many names for God in the Bible express an aspect of His character. You can see it easily in verses like these:
Ex. 13:14 "Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
Gen. 16:13 "She [Hagar] gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me [El Roi]," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me.""
The name Jehovah has to do with God's "be"-ing, as you can see in the footnotes to Ex. 3:14-15.
And the name Jesus means "the LORD saves" (Matt. 1:21).
God the Holy Spirit doesn't need a ordinary proper name like Bob or Joe. He already has the name (character, fame, reputation) of "Holy Spirit" (meaning "Breath") and "Counselor" (or "Advocate").
*IF* God were going to reveal a new name (like Bob or Joe) to us in these times, it would express an aspect of His character--either revealing something new about Him, or revealing something in a new way.
All given names have a meaning. Someone expecting a baby pours over baby name resources to see the meanings of the names they are considering for their baby. Even if they pick a name because of the sound of it, disregarding the meaning of the name, it still has a meaning. "Cyrus" means "of the sun."
There are lots of good names out there that could be appropriate for God, even Bob (which means "bright fame") and Joe (which means "God will increase"). But we certainly couldn't expect a name that meant something like "he deceives" (Jacob, Gen. 25:26) or "departed glory" (Ichabod, 1 Sam. 4:21), and we wouldn't even expect something like "farmer" (George).
Do you know the meaning of "Ahn Sahng Hong" (or even just "Sahng Hong" since Ahn is the family name)? Of all the things I hear (read) the WMSCOG preach about, I can't remember ever hearing them preach about the meaning of this name. I would have thought it would be pretty important. I have asked others, though, and looked for online resources, and I have an idea, but maybe you can help me with this one.
(Here's an interesting series about Korean names you might find interesting:
http://belectricground.com/2011/08/08/korean-language-and-culture-series-korean-names-part-4/)
If that's not a good question for you this time, then we can get back to talking about salvation...
Do you think it is possible to obey all of God's commands all the time, without fail?
Hey. Lets stay with salvation for now.
ReplyDeleteBut I like the meaning of my name. It represents my soul. Not Cryus, my other name. :). I never really worried too much about names. Theres a man in my church whose name means red dragon. I suppose thats why its called a given name. What about Jesus? Jesus is not actually His name. Doesn't Jesus mean little Zeus? Do many pray to "little Zeus"? I have to double check that one.
Also Holy Spirit is a title, just like God, or angel or father or mother or brother or sister etc. Holy Spirit is not an actual name. Genny, you may answer to your titles, but its not your actually name.
As for following the bible to the effect of not putting on jewelry, or dying your hair, ai think thats good too. My church follows the bible in that sort of way. I really dont know if they refrain from dying their hair. I think they do refrain. Its more the north and south american people who do. If dying your hair brings pride out of your soul, God will humble the proud.
What do you mean Genny that you never heard them preach about the meaning of a name? How much time have you spent with WMSCOG?
Even "the Lord" has been changed from the original names.
When you read "the LORD" in the bible, its a substitute for: YHWH (Yahweh), or JHVH (Jehovah). Its God's name during old testament times.
When you read "the Lord" its a substitute for Adonai which means God as owner and master of all creation.
I'll check out you article about Korean names later. But just like King Cyrus was without genealogy, so was Christ Ahnsahnghong. He came from the east, from a buddhist family.
But getting back to salvation. I believe God wouldn't give us commands we couldn't keep. Its possible to keep all of God's commands without transgression. Jesus set us an example. For us to keep all the commands is difficult. Much suffering would be required. Also we are sinful beings, and its easy for us to trangress the law. Satan will see you keeping God's commands and bring you hardship. Also God could test you as well. Now it may be more difficult to keep God's commands because we transgress spiritually, even by our thoughts and feelings. But the goods news is that our sins are atoned for by the blood of Jesus. My church teaches that we are to compete the law of God with overflowing joy because we have forgiveness and grace.
Also we are not use this grace as a license to sin as written in Jude. We are to overcome sin. We are to overcome this world. And its not easy. But its possible. As for your list, if its written and you adhere to it than I believe its good. But our righteous doesnt give us salvation, the Spirit and the Bride give us the water of life. What does our righteousness look like? I believe Isaiah said our righteousness are like filthy rags before God. Therefore we need God and the grace of God. But I believe there is a limit to that grace.
Lastly, Jehovah's witnesses believe they have salvation, Catholic's believe they have salvation. There is a great contrast between the two groups. The SDA believe they have salvation. I really dont know about them all. God knows about them. But we believe we have salvation. We believe we will recieve the water of life from the Spirit and the Bride. Now during the time of Elijah, there was only him amomg the many false prophets. During the time of Jeremiah, he was the only one among the many false prophets. So is there only one church with salvation among the many others churches? I believe yes. So which one then? As for salvation, I believe its in Zion today. And we go to Zion, the temple of God.
But my question for you is how much time have you spent with the WMSCOG? Im curious. Because there's lots you know. Not everything. You have some of the books.
I like the meaning of my name too. But as for Jesus meaning "little Zeus," I don't know where you got that. That would be kind of like saying Genny means "giant knee." Jesus was not an uncommon name then, and it is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Joshua or Yehoshua, meaning "the Lord saves."
ReplyDeleteI have not heard anyone preach about the meaning of the name "Ahn Sahng Hong." (Besides that it's the "name of the savior of this age of the Holy Spirit")
The only reason an actual name is needed is to distinguish people apart. Very young children might think all their teachers' names are "Teacher." The reason they learn to call them "Mrs. X" and "Mrs. Z" is so they can tell who they're talking about. All the many Hindu gods have names so you can tell them apart, but they are false gods. Are there any other true Gods that God would need to distinguish Himself from? No. God does not need an actual name like Bob to tell Himself apart from other Gods. Jesus had a human name to tell Him apart from other humans (but it still had meaning). If the Holy Spirit were to be born as a human baby, then He would need a name to tell Him apart from other humans, but He is a "Spirit" which means He doesn't have a human body. But if we talk more about this we'll need to get into the differences between the Christian interpretation of the Trinity and the WMSCOG interpretation of the Trinity (which is actually Modalism).
I'm sorry, but I need to correct a couple things you wrote. King Cyrus had genealogy. He inherited his throne through his family. Also, the verse about not using your freedom as a license to sin is not in Jude, but Galatians 5:13. (Unless you were thinking of Romans 6:1, but still.) Also, in 1 Kings 19, God assured Elijah that he was not the only one of God's people left. And as for the list of requirements, it wasn't *my list, just a gathering of requirements from a variety of churches. (Just wanted to make sure that was clear. :)
You are right that there are many groups that say they have salvation, and if they are very different then obviously they can't all be right. BUT they all have reasons to convince people that they are right. That's why we need some kind of outside proof or evidence (like I talked about earlier) to help us distinguish who has the truth.
You said it is possible (though not easy) to overcome sin, to keep all of God's commands without transgression, because Jesus showed us as an example that it's possible. First off, Jesus is God, so of course He could live a perfect life. But we humans are not perfect. Even if you kept all your feasts and sabbaths and the obvious things like do not murder and do not commit adultery, there are still the inside sins that are much harder to control and not obvious if you are doing them.
Jesus said that looking at another with lust was the same as committing adultery in the heart, and that being angry with someone and calling them a fool was subject to the same judgment as murder. We are told not to covet, not to be afraid, and not to worry. And even knowing you should do something good but not doing it is also sin (James 4:17). You know that policeman who was in the news for buying the homeless man shoes? If he knew that was what he was supposed to do, but didn't end up doing it, it would have been sin.
I believe it is possible to live without habitual sin and even to be totally sin free for a brief time, but as humans it is impossible for us to fully obey 100% of God's commands 100% of the time. It is a noble goal, but realistically it is impossible, which is why we need God's grace.
You asked how much time I've spent with the WMSCOG. I have been studying the WMSCOG since 2008. I have read the evidence book, at least 6 of Ahnsahnghong's books fully, and parts of others, and I've read nearly all of the online sermons at the watv website and watched many of the dramatic videos, and I've talked with many members and ex-members online and in person, and I've studied with my sister and others in person also, and attended some services. I am aware that I don't know *everything* about the WMSCOG but I know quite a bit. I hope that covers anything you were curious about. :)
DeleteMy question for you is... The WMSCOG teaches that salvation is based on obedience. Perfect 100% obedience is impossible, so how do you know when you have obeyed enough to be saved? And related to that, not obeying is sin, so what is the penalty of sin, or what would be the result of not being saved?
Okay cool. 2008. I hear that.
ReplyDeleteWell Genny, what does the bible say about sin? We are all destined to die for our sins. And that is through Adam. And of course there is the eternal punishment of hell. And that is for spirits of men and women. You say obedience. Now doesn't obedience come from the Holy Spirit?
So what did the angel say to Daniel? Multitudes will rise from the dust, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting shame and contempt. And Revelation prophesies about the lake of fire. We are judged first, and then sent to paradise if your name is written in the book of life. But of course you must already know this.
We will truly find out on judgement day if we have obeyed enough to be saved. But we can be confident through the words of the bible. I beleive we must keep the commands until our last day of our life or the last day when Jesus said he will raise you up. I dont think we should reach a point in our lives and think, "Oh I've done enough, so I'm good now."
What does the bible say?
-The water of life is a free gift
-Whoever eats the flesh and blood of Jesus has eternal life and will be raised up at the last day.
-Jesus established the new covenant through the passover (not communion).
-The Sabbath day hasn't been changed by God and must be keep. (The Sabbath day represents the rest in the kingdom of heaven.)
-Jesus kept the 7 feasts.
-We are saved by grace. (What is grace? the chance to keep the commands of God. Grace is not a license to disobey.)
-etcetera
-etcetera
-etcetera
We must have faith. But faith without acts is dead. So we must not have dead faith. For me I dont think we should sit back and relax. Our true rest begins in heaven. So now we must walk this world, work, labor and toil. Sometimes we are persecuted, and share in the suffering for Christ. But after, we share in His glory (Romans 8:17).
Also we must have knowledge. In the book of Hosea God says "my people are destroyed by a lack of knowledge." Ezekial 22:26 says "they do not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean; and they shut their eyes to the keeping of my Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them." We must distinguish between the holy and the common. For example Saturday is holy. Sunday is common. Unless Sunday is the day of first fruits.
I think the day that I have obeyed enough is when I keep the last Sabbath day before the last day (the last day of my life or THE last day).
Now I have a question for you.
Genny, why would God (who is all powerful, almighty, the beginning and the end, great beyond measure) allow us men and women to be born into a world of sin, a world filled with the schemes and efforts of Satan? Why wouldn't God allow us to be born into a perfect world apart from the evil of Satan?
Hi Genny. I assume you are enjoying your weekend. And I assume its the weekend for you. Sabbath day/Sunday. Im enjoying mine. Im happy and energized from all my church singing, fellowship, studies.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, I realize my question was moving away from the previous topic of salvation. Another thing came to mind in regards to keeping God's commands or sinning. In Daniel 11:35 its says that "some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined..." I mean everyone sins in this world weather they know it or not. You believe its impossible to keep all the commands. Personally I believe its possible but not easy. But I dont think we should rely on the idea that God will give us grace no matter what. I personally believe there is a limit to the grace of God. God good, God is great, and we should thank Him always. But I dont want to test God, and think "oh I have grace."
Now what did my pastor preach about? Im trying to think of a verse here. What he was talking about was not related to our conversation. But... I cant remember anymore. Anyways. (blank) see (blank) do but I totally forgot.
Okay where was I? Jude. I was thinking about Jude 1:4. "they are Godless men who change the grace of God into a license for immorality. The verses from Galatians 5 and Romans 6 are good verses too. Some things I mention I take from my memory. As for little Zeus, I think the name Jesus comes from the Greek words of little Zeus. That came from my memory bank. I'll have to get a reference for that.
And yes I heard about the policeman.
As for King Cyrus, he didnt have geneology. I think geneology in the bible is just about king david. So when it says no geneology, I understand it means no descendant from King David's line. Am I making cents? Hopefully at least two.
So what do you think someone needs for salvation?
Hi Cyrus. How's it going for you this week?
ReplyDeleteLet's see, where were we?...
Oh, before I forget, if you are talking about the genealogy mentioned in Hebrews 7, it is talking about the Levitical priesthood. For the Israelites, your genealogy had to be in the family line of Levi to be a priest. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, not Levi. There are other explanation of Hebrews 7 that you can read in commentaries. Just click on "show resources" when you are reading on biblegateway.com.
A few of the things you said, "...I dont think we should reach a point in our lives and think, "Oh I've done enough, so I'm good now."...Grace is not a license to disobey....But faith without acts is dead. So we must not have dead faith. For me I dont think we should sit back and relax....Jude 1:4 "they are Godless men who change the grace of God into a license for immorality.""
I think we have similar thoughts here. If I were talking to someone who called themselves a Christian, but they were cheating on their taxes, sleeping with their boyfriend, lying to their employer, telling dirty jokes, skipping church services all the time to watch the game on tv, etc., then I would be telling them to consider how they live, and that if they truly loved God they should examine why they do these things, and do they think these habits follow the way God wants them to live.
I don't think we disagree that it's important to live out your faith.
I think where we disagree is here:
You must have perfect obedience ("possible but not easy" you said) in order to receive God's gift of salvation.
vs.
You can have God's gift of salvation even if you fail at perfect obedience because God knows the attitude of your heart. (It's certain that we'll fail at obedience sometime or another because we are imperfect humans.)
I'm going to ask my question first here, then I'll answer the one you had for me.
You said, "I think the day that I have obeyed enough is when I keep the last Sabbath day before the last day (the last day of my life or THE last day)."
What about the times you disobeyed before that last Sabbath Day (say between the time when you were baptized and that last Sabbath), or between that last Sabbath day and the last day (say if it comes on a Thursday)? Disobedience is sin, and the price of sin is death (that lake of fire), so how will that price be paid for you for those times you disobeyed? (I have a hard time believing that you can live every, single day without pride, fear, worry, anger, lust, and/or coveting.)
You asked what I thought someone needs for salvation.
DeleteThe payment of sin is death (hell, the lake of fire, as you mentioned). As soon as someone sins in their life, they have that debt to pay. It doesn't really matter how much you sin, little or lots, you still have that debt you owe. (There's no difference between a little or a lot dead. You're still in the lake of fire whether you are in the middle or the edge.)
Salvation is to be saved from that debt of hell (the penalty of sin) so you can be with God in heaven. What you need for salvation is someone else to pay that debt for you. You could pay it yourself, but then that wouldn't be salvation would it?
You need someone to pay that debt who doesn't already have to pay it for themselves. You need a perfect someone who is willing to take that punishment. That perfect someone was Jesus. And because He was (is) God, death did not have the power to keep Him, which He proved by His Resurrection.
You have to accept that payment on your behalf. If you don't accept that payment, then you are back to making the payment for yourself.
Imagine a court of law. The defendant (criminal) has been found guilty of breaking a law. The judge must by law give him a sentence of jail time and a hefty fine.
If the criminal says, "But judge, I've obeyed so many other laws. I promise I'll never break another law as long as I live." Even if the criminal really could keep his promise to never break another law again, could the judge just excuse him and mark the sentence paid? No, not if he was an honest and righteous judge. The sentence must be paid.
No analogy is perfect, but this one comes pretty close.
So, what do you need for salvation? You need to believe that Jesus paid this price for you on the cross, and the evidence that you truly believe and accept this payment will be a life that exhibits your love and faith in God.
"He paid a debt He did not owe; I owed a debt I could not pay."
This is what our kids learn at my church:
What does God ask us to do in order to receive His salvation?
1. Confess and repent of our sins.
2. Ask God to save us.
3. Believe Jesus was raised from the dead.
4. Confess Jesus as Savior and Lord.
(1 John 1:9; Acts 2:21 and 20:21; Romans 10:9,10,13)
Genny, I understand what you say about salvation. When I attended church on Sunday I was taught the same things. I was even told we must believe in Jesus and accept him in our hearts. Or we are to ask him to come into our heart. Or we accept that Jesus died for our sins, and that we must confess we are sinners. Or we must believe in Jesus, then we are saved. Sounds easy enough right?
ReplyDeleteWe at the temple believe Jesus paid the price for our sins. We eat the passover bread which is the body of Jesus, and we drink the cup, which is for the forgiveness of sins and also his blood. I remember that classic song, "there is power in the blood." You believe in the blood of Jesus. We believe too, but we also partake in the blood. The passover blood of the lamb according to the scriptures. And I know your church keeps communion. (The grape juice and the cracker?) But its opposite to how we do it. Your church keeps communion probably once a month and celebrates easter once a year without bread and wine. As you know we dont celebrate easter, only the passover as written in the scriptures. We believe in Jesus like your church but our acts of faith are different.
But what commands of God does your church disobey according to scripture? Jesus said keep the commands, and he gave us a new command as well. We believe there are more things to do receieve salvation. Believe, then be baptised, then keep the commandments like the order of worship, and the feasts of God like the passover and the sabbath. And of course we discussed the passover and observe it just how Jesus did it. But I wonder why most churches who believe in Jesus dont do as Jesus did (passover).
So what happens if I sin on thursday? Well I was trying to say I must obey God until the last day. I pray and hope if I do sin on that thursday God will forgive me and give me grace. Now I shouldnt put God to the test. Nor should I believe I have everlasting grace. Nor should I sin.
But think of it, if I intentionally sin and disobey here on earth, then could I not do the same in heaven? Living in this world is not easy for anyone. Its very difficult.
But who is able, or who is willing, or who has the faith to live a righteous life here on earth that they may be found worthy to enter the kingdom of heaven? Dont get me wring. My own righteousness wont save me. But who will keep the commands in order to be saved?
If Jesus paid the price for our sins, then shouldn't we keep the commands? I understand you believe in living in grace.
Question:
So do you believe that you can live in the grace of God and break the commands of God at the same time? (Sabbath day)
Hi Cyrus. I don't have a lot of time this week, but I'll respond to as much as I can...
ReplyDeleteYour questions was:
"So do you believe that you can live in the grace of God and break the commands of God at the same time? (Sabbath day)"
If you are speaking specifically of breaking the command of the Saturday Sabbath, I don't believe that command is still in force. I know you will disagree with me about this. Please review the information here to help you understand why someone would say that Sabbath keeping is not required:
http://exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/SabbathSunday/tabid/516/Default.aspx
If you were speaking of living in grace and breaking the commands of God (in general) at the same time... Yes, I do believe it is possible because that's what grace means. Grace is mercy, unmerited favor. If you *always* kept the commands of God, why would you need to live in grace?
About a few of the other things you wrote...
You said, "As you know we dont celebrate easter, only the passover as written in the scriptures."
Yes, you do celebrate Easter, you just don't call it that. (We're talking about celebrating the Resurrection, not the Easter bunny.) The WMSCOG and the general Christian churches (including the Catholics) have celebrated the Resurrection of Jesus on the *same day* every year since 2003 (that's as far back as the WMSCOG online record goes).
You said, "But what commands of God does your church disobey according to scripture? Jesus said keep the commands, and he gave us a new command as well. We believe there are more things to do receieve salvation. Believe, then be baptised, then keep the commandments like the order of worship, and the feasts of God like the passover and the sabbath."
You keep focusing on ceremonial things you say God has commanded (order of worship, feasts of God, Passover, Sabbath). If you read the New Testament and look specifically for when Jesus commanded things, you find that he did not focus on ceremonial things but relational things. For example, He never once said "Keep the Sabbath" but He did say "Love one another." I challenge you to go through the Gospels sometime and write out all commands Jesus gave and see what you find. I did this and found it quite eye opening.
You said, "We eat the passover bread which is the body of Jesus, and we drink the cup, which is for the forgiveness of sins and also his blood. I remember that classic song, "there is power in the blood." You believe in the blood of Jesus. We believe too, but we also partake in the blood. The passover blood of the lamb according to the scriptures."
I love that song "There is power in the blood." :)
This brings me to my question for you. Just something I need clarified so I can understand better.
Do you believe (does the WMSCOG teach) that the bread (or cracker) and wine (or grape juice) becomes the *actual* body and blood of Christ (like transubstantiation) or do they merely represent (as symbols) the body and the blood?
Genny, its that time of year again. Everyone is so busy. Me too, but I'm busy with other things. As you know we dont celebrate. But there is so much of it I cant really get away anyways. Christmas still reminds me of my youth.
ReplyDeleteAs for our worship services, we observe it seriously. There is a structure and an order to it. No coffee, no candy. There is no jumping or no craziness like there is in some churches. The bread and wine is symbolic of the Jesus' passover bread and wine. We treat the bread and wine as if it is the body of Jesus during our service. We take the passover seriously. But every service weather its tuesday or the feast of weeks we treat as important. Jesus said this is my body... This cup is my blood... So according to the words of Jesus it is his body and blood. In my opinion, materially its bread and wine, but spiritually it would be Jesus' flesh and blood. Make sense?
What else? We partake in the body and blood of christ, but our focus is more on the Spirit and the Bride who give the free gift of the water of life. Rev 22. Your focus is Jesus. The love of Jesus. We believe in Jesus too. But we focus on Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (the Spirit and the Bride). We do not pray to the Lord, or Jesus.
You mentioned that the sabbath day is not enforced. You are right, its not enforced. We are free to choose to follow Gods commands or not. But didn't Jesus say, I didnt come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it? Didnt Jesus say keep the commands? Yes he did. Jesus said the son of man is Lord of the sabbath. Jesus didnt say the son of man is Lord of the day after. Jesus didnt say stop keeping the sabbath. I take the day off on saturday, and I work on sunday. And its good for me this way. If its God's will to worship on saturday then we should do it.
You talk about grace. Grace is good. I just hope your belief in grace isnt false. It sounds too for granted. Too good to be true. Its just how it sounds to me.
Further, we do not celebrated Easter. We celebrate the passover. There is a difference. There was a verse i read recently... Jeremiah 8:7 : the stork knows her appointed seasons... But my people do not know the requirements to the Lord. I believe that is true today.
Genny, I dont have a question today. If one comes to mind I'll put it down. Talk to you soon.
Happy new year, Cyrus. Yes, it's been busy busy here too. I don't have any new questions today, but a few questions relating to some of your last points.
ReplyDeleteYou said, "materially its bread and wine, but spiritually it would be Jesus' flesh and blood."
When you say "spiritually" do you mean "symbolically"? If not, what do you see as the difference between "spiritually" and "symbolically"?
You said, "Didnt Jesus say keep the commands?"
Did you read yet the article I referred you to about the Sabbath and Sunday?
You and I differ as to what those commands are. For example, do you think these commands are still to be kept?
"Do not plant two kinds of seeds in your vineyard."
"Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together."
"Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear."
"At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts."
You said, "Further, we do not celebrated Easter. We celebrate the passover. There is a difference."
When I said that you celebrate Easter, I wasn't talking about the Passover but Resurrection Day. Yes, you do celebrate that, and on the same day that mainstream (Western) Christians do. Here's the record...
The dates of Easter (Resurrection Day) are here (scroll down a little):
http://www.smart.net/~mmontes/freq3.html
Now check here with the wmscog's record of their celebrations and you'll see they are the same dates:
April 20, 2003 -- english.watv.org/news/content.asp?idx=145
April 11, 2004 -- english.watv.org/news/content.asp?idx=242
March 27, 2005 -- english.watv.org/news/content.asp?idx=368
April 16, 2006 -- english.watv.org/news/content.asp?idx=490
April 8, 2007 -- english.watv.org/news/content.asp?idx=770
March 23, 2008 -- english.watv.org/news/content.asp?idx=790
April 12, 2009 -- english.watv.org/news/content.asp?idx=758
April 4, 2010 -- english.watv.org/news/content.asp?idx=862
April 24, 2011 -- (This record is not online, but I had it from a WMSCOG source.)
April 8, 2012 -- english.watv.org/news/content.asp?idx=1698
Can you explain why all those dates are the same yet you say you don't celebrate Easter? (Remember we're talking Easter as in Resurrection Day, not as in Easter bunnies.)
Hope you have had a pleasant end to the old year and start of the new.
Im looking forward to this new year. Im excited to see what blessings God has for us.
ReplyDeleteYou could say bread and wine symbolizes the flesh and blood of Jesus. But compared to the spirit symbols are empty. We dont partake in just symbols. But the spirit. Symbols mean something of course. But symbols are an empty cup if there is no spirit. Make sense?
Next, I have to say... Genny genny genny... We dont celebrate easter. Nope nada zero zilch. Easter is pagan. Where in the bible is Easter written. The word is not in the bible. Did we talk about this already? You know when the Romans mixed paganism and christianity together. Like Christmas? The birth of the son of God and the birth of the sun. The sabbath day was moved to "Sun"day. Pagan easter and the resurrection day of christ.
However you are right. We do worship on the same day. On that one sunday. But what Im trying to do here is show you there is a difference. Im making a distinction. You go to church for easter. I go to church for the resurrection day. Hold on here let me explain further. Im actually celebrating the feast of unleavened bread. You are celebrating easter. I celebrate the passover with bread and wine, the feast of unleavened bread, and on the first sunday after the passover we celebrate the day of first fruits. You celebrate easter, I celebrate the day of first fruits. There is a difference here. Same day but different purpose and meaning. And as we know Jesus arose on the day of first fruits.
Do you see the difference Im making here?
The commands you listed is from the old law of Moses. That would be old covenant rules. Those we do not follow. Wasnt Jesus talking about the 10 commands? We are to follow those ones. We have to find out what is new covenant law. The law of Christ. So no easter, no sunday, no christmas etc. (No offensive cross). Old covenant passover is slaughtering a lamb at twilight. New covenant passover is bread and wine. Easter, sunday, christmas, the cross, are not requirements of the new covenant. So they do not need to be practiced. But i would say they should not be done. God set the rules, not us. Know what Im saying?
I'll have to read that article again. Then maybe I'll make a website called, encountering the cults of Sunday... Nevermind, forget that thought. :)
Anyways. I could say anything is good. I could say Christmas is good. Family gets together, its fun, happy time, you gets presents. Its good on a material level. However its the spiritual side that will determine if its right or not. My overseer said its a feast of the world, not a feast of God. Jesus said only those who do the will of god will enter the kingdom of heaven. Genny, you could say Christmas is the will... But if God didnt say it then, well... You know what I trying to get at here.
Anyways, 2013 is here. I cant wait for this year to get going. And see what God has planned. I got my oil, and a light for my feet. Talk to you later.
I just have a moment, so I'm only going to ask this for now...
ReplyDeleteYou said, "You go to church for easter. I go to church for the resurrection day."
What do you think I do when I go to church for Easter?
Hi Cyrus, I'm back. :) And with a little more time, thankfully. I didn't mean my last question to sound sarcastic. I am seriously asking because in order to talk about this more I need to know where you are coming from. If you don't think I celebrate the Resurrection, what do you think that I do at Easter?
ReplyDeleteI'd like to come back to symbolical vs. spiritual later. There is more to talk about with that.
And I'd like to come back to what commands you think we are to follow. I understand now you are not looking at Old Testament, only New Testament. But do you consider all commands given in the New Testament necessary? For example, are these necessary:
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers." (I almost spelled "yolked". Wouldn't that make a funny visual picture. :)
"Greet one another with a holy kiss."
"If a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him."
"when you pray, go into your room, [and] close the door"
We can put that conversation on hold too, though. Maybe we should focus on Easter for a little since it will be here in just a couple months. So my question, in another way, is:
Why do you consider the Christian celebration of Easter (whatever it is you think I do on Easter) different from the celebration of the Resurrection Day?
And on a personal note... Thanks again for the stimulating conversation we've been having. I pray God has good things in store for us both this year.
No... I dont think I could accept a holy kiss from my pastor... Yikes. I dont know why that first came to mind. Lol.
ReplyDeleteWhere are we here? Easter. Well, with what I was saying, I was trying make a difference with what you do and what we do. You wanted to know what I think you do on Easter. I suppose I shouldn't give you a funny sarcastic answer. Its late for that now. I think you celebrate the resurrection of Jesus... Under the pseudonym of Easter. Why call it "easter" then. If you are gonna celebrate and worship God, why dont you do it right?
We celebrate the 7 feasts of God. One of those days we celebrate the day of first fruits. Its the day Jesus resurrected. I think Im repeating myself here. My issue is easter. Why call it easter? Why not call it for what it is? The day of first fruits. Do you know christians who secretly celebrate the pagan god called easter? Why not change the name and call it... hammer time. Unless they are too legit to quit. Sorry, Im having some fun with this. :) You probably dont find it funny. :) I shouldnt be like that.
Do you get my point? You say you "celebrate easter." Hey Genny, did you know, I celebrate hammer time... Anyways.
I look at old testsment too. Its a shadow. But not the reality for today.
And whats yol-ked? ... Oh I see. I didnt know egg yolk can be made into a verb. Somebody is going to get yolked next time their dog puts a poop on my lawn. Lols. It could work.
As for commands like do not be yoked with unbelievers. I understand that command. I dont think my hair is an issue. Its not long like a woman. I personally wouldn't want it that long anyways. Probably go get myself a cut. I believe we should follow the commands of Jesus because they are important. Did Paul say we should greet people with a kiss? If you follow the commands of the bible, wont that be good? Are you doing it for god? What is the purpose to close the door when you pray? So you dont put on a display for others? So you dont act like a pharisee? I believe you can pray in public too, do it for god. Let me think more about that question.
Question? I dont have any pending questions. Lets see... Why does the world celebrate christmas? Is it because wise men brought gifts? Did the disciples celebrate christmas?
Lol. :) I appreciate humor. You seem to be in a comical mood today, Cyrus.
ReplyDeleteEaster is only called "Easter" (or "Ostern") in English and German. All other languages use a word that is related to Passover or Resurrection. So if your only objection is the name "Easter," then you must have no problem with Christians in France who celebrate Pâques, or in Italy who celebrate Pasqua, or in Africa who celebrate Pasaka, or even those in the Ukraine who celebrate Великдень (Great Day) or in Croatia who celebrate Uskrs (Resurrection), right?
If your only objection is the term "Easter" please tell me, and I'll address it.
I do not know any Christians who "secretly celebrate the pagan god called easter." Do you? What makes you think they (or I) do? Again, if you say, "If you are gonna celebrate and worship God, why dont you do it right?" what do you think I do on Easter that isn't "right" (if there is something other than the name "Easter")?
I think we could have an interesting time talking about commands in the New Testament. But I'll stick with Easter for now and we can get to those later. Your question...
"Why does the world celebrate christmas? Is it because wise men brought gifts? Did the disciples celebrate christmas?"
The Bible doesn't mention anyone celebrating the birth of Jesus (well, except for when it actually happened, you know, shepherds and angels in the field, Simeon and Anna in the temple, the Magi though they were a bit later). From the Bible, there is no reason to believe the disciples celebrated Jesus' birthday every year. They may have, but they didn't write about it.
But, isn't the birth of Jesus a wonderful thing to remember and think about, even if we don't know the exact day? Do we need a command from God to celebrate something meaningful? Do you have a command to celebrate Mother's Day, Father's Day, Independence Day, Memorial Day, your birthday, New Year's Day, etc.? I bet you still mark the days anyway. (Just rhetorical questions to make the point. My question for you is still the one about Easter.)
There was no command from God to celebrate Hanukkah, yet Jesus was in the temple for it (John 10:22). Don't try saying that He was often in the temple, so the mention of Hanukkah has no meaning. If it had no meaning, then it would not have been mentioned.
The Jews established the feast of Purim to celebrate their deliverance at the time of Esther (Esther 9). Is there any indication that God was displeased with that? No.
Christians celebrate Christmas because they love to remember that God came to earth as a baby. I don't know about your experience, but at my church we don't stop the remembrances there. We use Christmas to remember that the same baby, born in a manger, grew up, was crucified, and rose again triumphantly.
Question (again, just in case you lost it in all that writing):
What else, besides the name "Easter," do you object to in Christian celebrations of the Resurrection? What makes you say they (we) are "secretly celebrating a pagan god" (besides the term "Easter," since only English and German use that term, and obviously you must have a problem with this Christian celebration worldwide, not just in English and German speaking countries)?
PS--You might be interested in reading more about the term "Easter." This is a good source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2011/04/19/name-easter-pagan
DeleteIsnt that just swell. I just finished writing you half a novel here, i hit preview then everything erased. >:(
ReplyDeleteWhy does my computer do that? Not happy camping here.
Okay, I'll quickly type a couple points and get back to you later.
Genny, my issue is the name Easter. I know people go to church to celebrate the resurrection of christ on that day. That comment about "secretly celebrating a pagan god" was just a little extra I threw in there. :) Just adding some pepper to my pasta. Dont mind me.
You make good points there. Purim? Thats something we dont celebrate. You have me curious about those other festivals. Do you have knowledge about new moon festivals? Im curious about those ones too.
I more than less question those christian celebrations and dont celebrate them. Im thankful we live in a country where we are free to worship (bill of rights). Are we not "one nation under God?"
What other christian celebrations are there besides the main ones? (easter, sunday, christmas)
I have had that problem too. It's so frustrating! Now what I do, if I've written a lot and don't want to risk losing it with a glitch, is highlight and copy before clicking any buttons. Then if something goes wrong I can just paste it back the comment box.
ReplyDeleteI don't celebrate Purim or Hanukkah either, but I would have no problem marking those days if my kids were interested in remembering what God had done for the Jewish people at those times.
What other Christian celebrations are there besides the weekly service, Easter, and Christmas? Well, we involve God in all aspects of our lives, so other holidays have deeper meaning also.
New Years Day we give thanks to God for carrying us through another year.
Mother's Day and Father's Day we give thanks to God for the parents He gave us and also thank Him for being a "father to the fatherless" (Ps. 68:5).
Independence Day we thank Him for the freedoms we have in this country, and ask for His blessing over our country and its people.
On birthdays we thank Him for the birthday person's life and the blessing it is to have them as part of our lives and for God to bless them as they go forward in another year of life.
At Thanksgiving we thank God for helping the Pilgrims in their first hard winter here and praise God for everything He has done for us too, an opportunity to count our many blessings.
And on and on... We can make God part of every national and cultural holiday I can think of.
Even St. Patrick's Day, we think of how Patrick was a light for the gospel in Ireland even after he had been enslaved there.
And Valentine's Day, how much God loves us and how He blesses us with human love as well.
I could even mention National Ice Cream Day. Thank God for ice cream! It's so yummy!
(Someone's going to think that's sacrilegious. I don't mean to be. I do thank God that someone invented ice cream!)
Here's what I know about new moon festivals. In ancient Israel, the month started with the new moon. The priests had the job of watching for the new moon, and when it was seen, the new month was declared. The first day of the month was celebrated as a Sabbath (not a Saturday, but a day of rest). Here's a list of verses which talk about this:
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionary-of-bible-themes/7398-New-Moon-festival
Ok, so back to Easter. The only problem you have then is the name "Easter"? Then that's really no problem, especially when you realize that it's only in English and German that it's called this. It's related to the German language.
I think it would take up a lot of space and time to explain it fully, so for now, I'll refer you again to this source, which has a detailed explanation:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2011/04/19/name-easter-pagan
Please read it and tell me what you think.
Alrighty then. I'll have to look up that article. Extend my research. Personally my focus is here in the West. I'll have to study more about other nations in the future.
ReplyDelete"Easter" is an issue for me. Its not according to scripture. But of course we live in a country where we are free to worship. And I thank God for that. As for Valentines day, or St Patrick's etc I put them in the category of festivals of the world. They are different from the 7 feasts of God which are sacred assemblies.
I've been busy with my opinions, thoughts and responses. I havent quoted scripture in a while.
Nehemiah 9:6
"You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you."
The multitudes of heaven worship God. We are currently multitudes of the earth. And I believe we have to be right in our worship to God. I say not anything should do. When some says they celebrate "Easter" then thats not good enough for me. Its the day of first fruits, a sacred assembly. I dont believe "easter" is the same. But this is my belief. We can give this matter rest.
If I celebrated every holiday and festival in the calendar year it'll be a party every other week. But I'll just stick with God's festivals instead.
National Ice Cream day? My town doesnt observe that one. I need to go call the mayor. Lol.
Genny, let me read that article. And I'll tell you what I think.
That's a nice verse. :) Here's another.
ReplyDeletePsalm 150:6
"Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD."
(Now I've got a song with those lyrics repeating in my head. Not complaining. It's a nice song.)
So that is good--read the article and get back to me about it later.
In the meantime, please think of this. There are many non-English- and non-German- speaking countries in "the West." If you lived in Mexico, what how would you object to the Christians there who celebrate "Pascua" since you couldn't object to their calling it "Easter"? The Spanish language didn't rename Easter as Pascua. Spanish is a Romance language--it developed from Latin. In English we have words from many different languages, but English originated as a Germanic language (not Romance). Anyway, I'm digressing with my love of languages...
I won't ask any other questions for now. Hope your week is going well. :)
Yes, I've heard that song before Genny. But my week is swell. Peaceful.
ReplyDeleteI read the article. It was interesting. I like his last sentence of the article: "...I mean resurrection day." So he's suggesting Easter may not be pagan. He makes a good argument. He tries to cut the roots of the name from the pagan side of it. So Easter, may have came from a variation of language. Okay. I can understand that. There is always 2 sides of the coin. I can admit when I'm wrong. But it could be pagan.
But with your new conversation you started. I wanted to say not everything I say here comes from my church. So just because I may be in error doesnt mean I took it from my church. I suggested Easter is pagan. In other words, what I say is not entirely and not strictly the views and teachings of WMSCOG. Perhaps, I could of started with a disclaimer at the beginning:
"Warning, the following is a voluntary presentation. Not all the thoughts expressed on this website are the teachings and views of WMSCOG, but that of Cyrus. So don’t be too offended. He is not here to judge you. God will do it.” :)
But going back to what I was saying. Call the day for what it is. Do it right. I'm saying go back to what the bible says. I'm talking about 3 feasts of God here: the passover, the feast of unleavened bread, the day of first fruits. Not Easter. Okay so if Easter is a variation of language, something from translation. Easter then is passover. The day Jesus established the new covenant. Easter then is not the day of first fruits.
But thanks to God we live in a country where we have the freedom of worship. Whether it is Easter or the day of first fruits. And we can give this matter a rest if you like. Maybe I should start a website and chat all I want there. Or shall I bring up all the things I, me Cyrus thinks is pagan in Christmas. O my goodness. Maybe not. :)
But things are well for me. I hope the same for you Genny.
Thank you for reading that article. Yes, he does make a good argument for the word "Easter" not necessarily being of pagan origin.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I understand that not everything you say should be taken as official WMSCOG doctrine. You've got your own personality and ideas coming through, and I think that's great.
However, you said, "So just because I may be in error doesnt mean I took it from my church. I suggested Easter is pagan. In other words, what I say is not entirely and not strictly the views and teachings of WMSCOG."
Actually, though, the WMSCOG DOES teach that Easter is pagan, unbiblical. And one of their major points is the name of it, "Easter."
I think I understand now what you are saying about the three feasts (Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits) compared to the one Easter. Easter is called Passover in other languages because it is related to and part of the Passover/Unleavened Bread/First Fruits festivals. Easter Sunday is at the end of Holy Week, which covers
--Palm Sunday which remembers Jesus' entrance to Jerusalem (the Triumphal Entry),
--Holy Thursday (or Maundy Thursday, "maundy" for foot washing) which remembers the Last Supper (Passover),
--Good Friday which remembers Jesus' crucifixion, and
--Easter Sunday which remembers the Resurrection, which is technically the Day of First Fruits.
[I don't mean to imply that you didn't know those days, Cyrus, but some of our readers might not know, so I though I should explain.]
I hear over and over from the WMSCOG, "We celebrate Passover, not Easter!" But really that's not a fair comparison. We *both celebrate Easter/Resurrection Day, and we *both remember Passover, though not always in the same way.
Ha! I just imagined what they might say in Mexico. Do you think they say, "We celebrate Pascua, not Pascua!" (Please excuse my mix of Spanish and English together.) But then in Spanish they also say "Domingo de Resurrección," so maybe they'd say "We celebrate Pascua, not Domingo de Resurrección!" But how confusing would that be!
I think when the WMSCOG says, "We celebrate Passover, not Easter" they really mean either,
"We celebrate Passover, not Resurrection Day" or
"We celebrate Resurrection Day, not Easter."
Neither one of those makes a lot of sense to me, but neither does their original statement.
It sounds like you are ready to let this rest. That's ok. But I'm open to comment. Sorry, I feel like I've been rambling. Got to get some sleep...
PS--The new post (about reader responses) wasn't meant to start a whole new conversation, so don't stress. I just wanted to let those readers know their view was shared. You can respond if you want. I answered your comment over there too.
Thanks Genny for your understanding. It's good. I'm not stressing. I'm just feeling what its like to hear my words coming back to me. Its good. Fair is fair. I know I need to settle down sometimes. lol. Got to keep it humble. But I'm learning alot being here anyways. At one point in life I didn't have a personality. That's all changed now. Lol. But regardless. I just wanted to check the responses.
ReplyDeleteAhem.. I'll comment more later. The sabbath day is fast approaching for the Americas. So its time to rest as God did at the end of the creation. Get back to you later.
-Cyrus :)
Hey Genny, Its Cyrus here. How are you doing? I'm busy with life. Life always changes. I dont see a comment from you. I just thought I'd check to see what is up. But nothing for now. One thing I realized is how you can be inspired if you just listen. Someone mentioned something to me this past week. I was inspired to say the least. But how about you? What wisdom do you have in regards to faith, in god?
ReplyDeleteHi Cyrus. :) Thanks for checking up with me. I've been doing ok, but dealing with some computer and family issues. Looks like I'll be shopping for another computer. (But not another family ;) -- I like the one I've got too much.)
ReplyDeleteI have been inspired recently to think about the compassion of God and how He holds us even during our saddest times.
This is the time of year when I think about my friend's heartbreak at the loss of her baby (http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/03/sin-of-baby.html).
Well, it so happens that I just got news of another baby who has died in similar circumstances. The mother was associated with my place of work. We are all so sad for this young couple's loss.
My family and I have lost close loved ones before, and even though we don't grieve as those who have no hope in resurrection (1 Thess. 4:13), it is still a sad time, especially thinking about ones so young.
I'm just curious, if you'd like to talk about it (no pressure), if you've experienced the death of a loved one. Was it recently, while you've been part of the wmscog? Did they support you through the experience?
If you don't wish to talk about that, then I'm open to any question you might have for me. I have no other questions for you at the moment.