Christmas -- Responding to WMSCOG comments

I'm back again, still trying to catch up with the many comments posted recently by World Mission Society Church of God members.  Just a reminder, if you would like to have a conversation, you are welcome to email me directly (knowhispeace@gmail.com) or join the forum here.

I have not changed or removed anything in these comments.

On July 31 at 10:40 pm, Anonymous posted on "Mother God -- Responding to WMSCOG comments" in response to my comment --

Genny wrote: Hi again. I assume you are the same person who wrote to ask if I celebrate Christmas and Easter. I think I did not make myself clear. I said nothing about December 25 because that date itself has minimal significance to me. I know full well (as should all Christians) that we do not know the exact date of Jesus' birth.

Anonymous wrote: Genny, so you acknowledged that Dec 25 is not the birthday of Jesus Christ then, and you are making yourself clear that this date has a minimal significance to you, meaning there is still a remaining significance to you so as to say.  

Yes, there is still a remaining significance to me.  If you were going to choose a time of year to celebrate the birth of Jesus, the time of the winter solstice would be meaningful.  The nights get longer and longer, and just when you might lose hope that darkness will win, the season turns.  Daytime begins to lengthen again.  The light triumphs, if you will.

Jesus is the light of the world, and He has triumphed over darkness -- John 8:12 and 12:46; Matthew 4:16.

This was not from a WMSCOG member, but it fits right in with this topic...

On August 6 at 10:47 am, James posted on "Mother God -- Responding to WMSCOG comments" --

The sad thing in all of this is that there is absolutely NO evidence, historically speaking, that December 25 was a pagan holiday before it was a Christian one. This is a bit of sloppy scholarship and old wives tales conflated over the generations.

At most, the Romans had two sun cults. The original, dating back to the centuries before Christ, Sol Indiges, had a feast on December 11 - NOT December 25. The other sun cult was the cult of Sol Invictus, which was actually the importation of Syrian Mythraism into Roman society by the Emperor Aurelian in the late third century AD. December 25 has never been specifically identified as a holiday for Sol Invictus, and the earliest records of a late December celebration of Sol Invictus are no older than the fourth century AD (mid 300's).

So, there's no evidence that there was a holiday for the sun in late December until long after Christ.

What we do have in some evidence, however, is that some Christian groups were celebrating the Nativity in the early to mid-200's. What we also have is the simple reality that December 25 was calculated by the early church by adding 9 months to March 25 - the Annunciation. And March 25 is calculated from Luke's statement in the first chapter of his Gospel that Gabriel came to Mary in "the sixth month" - which in the calendar he most likely observed introduced by Alexander the Great, translates to late March to early April by our Gregorian calendar.

None of this is to say that December 25 is exactly right. It could be off by days, weeks, or months. What's important is that there is no evidence from antiquity that the early church derived its holidays from the pagan calendar.  

Thanks, James.  That was really interesting.  Here is another comment about Christmas...

On July 31 at 10:48 pm, Anonymous posted on "Mother God -- Responding to WMSCOG comments" --

Genny wrote: I happily remember the birth of Jesus all year long. Yes, I sing Christmas hymns with my children even in the summer. I especially celebrate Jesus' birth in December because that's when the world puts a focus on it, and it's especially nice to celebrate in unison.

Anonymous wrote: On this, you clearly remember the birth of Jesus by singing Christmas songs and you believe that celebrating the birth of Jesus with everybody in the whole world because this is the day when the whole world puts their focus on it and it is very nice to celebrate in unison with them. Although you do not know what day is the birthday of Jesus, you simply mean that you can celebrate the birthday of Jesus any day of the year as you want to. So ,do you also mean you can celebrate the birthday of Jesus Christ many times a year as you want too? 

 and (a few minutes later at 10:52 pm) --

Genny wrote: As for the day, though, if you are talking about specific gatherings such as with my family or church, I can honestly say that I celebrate at least 5 or 6 different days. You see, it is the reason for the celebration, not the date of Dec. 25, that is important to me.

Anonymous wrote: So, you acknowledged that you celebrate the birthday of Jesus even 5 or 6x in different days because it is not the date that is important to you but the reason for the celebration. You also know very well that you follow your own thoughts in doing this! 

You believe that it is wrong to celebrate Jesus birth on a date that is not His actual birthday, and that we shouldn't just choose any date.  You also believe it is wrong of me to celebrate Jesus birth on many different days.  Do I understand your objections correctly?

Reflect on this... do you have children?  When do you celebrate their birthdays?  How about the rest of the people in your family?  How about your own birthday?  Do you ever celebrate on a day that is not the actual birthday?

Among my family and friends, we often have birthday celebrations that do not fall on the actual birthday of the person being honored.  This year, my son celebrated his birthday on three different days -- once with friends, and twice with two different parts of the family.  Are you saying that is wrong?  If I can't celebrate my child's birthday with family and friends on his actual birthday, am I prohibited from choosing a different day for us to celebrate in unison?  Would you like to give me a verse from the Bible that forbids my doing this?

I happily remember my children's birthdays all year round too, because I am so thankful to have them a part of my life.  I will gladly tell them stories about their births any time they ask, without making them wait until their actual birthday.  When I hear a particular song or see a particular picture or just have a passing thought about their births, I will praise God once again for the blessings He gave me.  I won't put the thoughts aside simply because it's "not the right day."  It is the same when I think about the birth of Jesus.  You would say this is wrong?

On July 31 at 11:42 pm, Anonymous posted on "Mother God -- Responding to WMSCOG comments" --

Genny, Is this too much for you answer? I understand how you feel! But I will listen to what you say and make a beneficial decision out of it. When you are ready to post all of my comments!! 

No, it's not too much for me to answer.  I'm just limited on time, and working through all the comments as I am able.  If you would put a name on your comments, it would make it easier to know which are yours, and which are from someone else.  You don't have to leave an email address with your name, and I don't mind if you choose a pseudonym.

I hope you'll be back.  There are still many more comments to go.

The Power of God -- Responding to WMSCOG comments

I'm here today to address  a couple more of the comments from World Mission Society Church of God member(s) that have come through in the last several days.  Again, I'll copy the comments exactly as they were written, without adding, removing, or editing anything

On July 28 at 5:55 am, Anonymous posted on "Mother God -- Responding to WMSCOG comments" --

You quoted: ROM 6:9 - Christ cannot die again. Ahnsahnghong is dead.
Who is Christ to you? Isn't He God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth? In the first place, does God need the flesh to wear? What is the flesh to God. God has no limitations. He can do whatever God wants to do. The flesh, he used in the body of Jesus Christ God does not need. But He used it during His 1st Coming because God CAN. It does not mean that He cannot use any other flesh, it is because GOD CAN!I believe you do not understand the POWER of GOD> 

 On July 29 at 6:34 pm, Anonymous posted on "The name of Jesus," in response to bigcedbeatz's comment --

Bigcedbiatz, You are foolish because of your little faith. Does God needs the flesh? NO!! When God made the heavens and the earth, He was in Spirit. He needs no flesh at all. But it does not mean that he will not use the flesh for his purpose. Do you know why? It is because God CAN! If God plans it, He will do it, and He CAN!!The flesh He used in the body of Jesus Christ is only a flesh. He used it for His purpose and left it. Will God forever use that same flesh again? God will do whatever He plans to do and nobody can stop God in fulfilling HIS plan! If He wants to reveal himself again in the flesh as an American, Russian, African, HE can do it because HE CAN!!!! Why do you question the power of GOD????? Foolish Christian!! 

Your basic point seems to be that it is within God's power to appear (be born) in the flesh again if He wanted to, and in any physical appearance.  You think I do not understand or believe in the power of God to do such a thing.

Yes, I do believe in the great power of God.  I believe He is able to do things that I can't even imagine.  But there are somethings that God will NOT do -- He will not do anything that is contrary to His character, His nature.  He will not lie.  He will not be unjust.  He will not contradict Himself.  (Here is a more detailed summary of what God cannot do.)

God said that He would not die again (Romans 6:9).  God said, multiple times, that there is only one God (see those verses here, here, and here.)  Did God lie when He said those things?

The WMSCOG teaches that Isaac was also God in the flesh.  Yet Isaac lied (Genesis 26), and Isaac was deceived (Genesis 27).

The Bible says God will not lie (Titus 1:2), and that He cannot be deceived by anyone (Hebrews 4:13).  The WMSCOG teaches that God lies and can be deceived.

Are you saying that God is so "powerful" that He can act contrary to His nature?

What do you call a "God" who acts contrary to God's unchanging nature?  A false god!

Accusations -- Responding to WMSCOG comments

I have received quite a few comments from World Mission Society Church of God member(s) in the last few days.  Rather than trying to address them all in the comment section, I'm going to post them here.  I'd also like to remind everyone about the forum where you can discuss WMCSOG topics.

I'll copy the comments exactly as they were written, without adding, removing, or editing anything.  However, they will not necessarily be in the order received...

On July 29 at 6:39 pm, Anonymous posted on "The name of Jesus" --

Genny, you are not posting all comments on your blog!!! These means that you are a false prophet who testifies falsehood. You do not want your evil schemes to be exposed so people will believe your lies!!! 

No, I do not post all comments on my blog.  You might be surprised at the magnitude of rudeness (to put it nicely), that occasionally comes through (both from pro- and anti-WMSCOG commentors).  I also won't post any comments that reveal personally identifying information.  Also, some comments are picked up by the spam filter.

Another thing to think about, I have a full life outside of this blog, my own family and job and activities, so sometimes I am delayed at approving comments and responding to them.  Please be patient with me.

Now, if you are serious that my "not posting all comments" is evidence that I'm a "false prophet" and that I don't want my "evil schemes to be exposed," then what would you say about all of the WMSCOG sites and member blogs that do not post all comments?

On July 29 at 5:54 pm, Anonymous posted on "The name of Jesus" --

The secrets of the knowledge of the kingdom of heaven has been given to God's children but not to people who are not God's children that is why Ahnsahnghong's books are not available to the general public. 

That's not a very useful quote to argue with.  Anyone could say, "I am God's child and you are not.  That's why you don't understand the truth I'm telling you."  You need something more substantial than that.

If Ahnsahnghong's books truly held the truth, and the WMSCOG truly preached the truth, why wouldn't they want the truth available to everyone? 

Think about other organizations that restrict their publications in the way the WMSCOG does.  What kinds of organizations are they?  Why do they have those restrictions?  (If you can't answer those questions for yourself, let me know.)

On July 29 at 6:44 pm, Anonymous posted on "The name of Jesus," in response to Carlos' comment --

Carlos, this website did not open your eyes but it closed your eyes to the truth! Genny does not follow the teachings of the bible absolutely and she encourage people to worship God in their own ways. That is absolutely WRONG. It is because Salvation belongs to God. And His statutes we need to keep. You are being deceived!!!  

We can each call the other "deceived!" but the word means little if it's not backed up by evidence.  Please check out my three summary pages (Key Verses, Internal Evidence, and Mistakes).  Also, if you haven't read the Start Here page, please do.

When you say that I "encourage people to worship God in their own ways," what do you mean by that?  What I think of when I hear that is that people should worship according to the personality that God gave them, and what is meaningful to them, in a way that pleases God.  For example, someone who loves nature probably worships God better when they are camping or on a hike and should not think that a building is the only suitable place to worship God.

On July 29 at 6:24 pm, Anonymous posted on "The name of Jesus," in response to Daniyyel's comment --

Danniyel, your sister is the one who is so sorry for you because your poor soul is dying. You believe that she is in a cult but in reality, you are the one who is in a cult. Let me explain this. The Jews captured apostle Paul and beheaded him because Paul was charged of heresy leading the Nazarene sect(cult). In the eyes of the general public who claim to believe in God persecuted the true believers: Paul, Peter, Stephen, the disciples. People like you also believe in God right? But you are the one persecuting the true believers in God, you even call them being in a cult! Someone who is in a cult does not follow the teachings of the bible. Let me ask you this. Do you celebrate Christmas? Are you a Sunday worshipper? If you are, then you are not following the teachings of the bible because the bible does not teach people to worship God on Sundays and also, nowhere in the bible Dec 25 is the birthday of Christ. You are being deceived by satan's schemes. 

And, on July 29 at 6:11 pm, Anonymous posted on "The name of Jesus" --

What is heresy? How do we know that a church is heretical? In the bible, heresy is a practice that does not follow the doctrine of the bible. Then which church is heretical? Sunday keeping churches or Saturday keeping churches? In the bible, God commanded people to keep the Sabbath day holy, which is Saturday. There is a Sabbath in accordance with the law of Moses and there is a Sabbath in accordance with the law of Christ. Since Christ gave us examples to follow even after his baptism, He kept the Sabbath day as his custom which is on Saturday. He said he is the Lord of the Sabbath. Obviously, Sunday is not the day Jesus gave, as an example to follow. Then, which church does not follow the example of Jesus Christ? Sunday keepers or Saturday keepers? The Sunday keeping churches are obviously heretical because they do not follow the examples of Christ and his disciples. Who introduced Sunday worship then? If it did not come from God, then it must come from the enemy of God which is the devil who uses all religious leaders, priests ,pastors, government officials, etc in his evil schemes to lead the whole world astray. 

It is true that when you have two people with opposing stands, each will say that they themselves have the truth and that the other is the one who is wrong.  That is why it's so important for both to set aside any preconceived notions, distinguish fact from opinion, and look at the issue from a rational standpoint.

No one likes to be told they are in a cult.  It could be true, or it could be a misunderstanding.  Since it is a word used by professionals to describe the World Mission Society Church of God, it is worth investigating.  (As a side note, one of the organizations I have a good opinion of is also on the list of cults at the Freedom of Mind resource center.  Is it true or a misunderstanding or what?  If I were considering joining, it would be worth investigating.)

Let me ask you this.  Do you celebrate birthdays, anniversaries, New Year on January 1, Independence Day (July 4), Mother's Day, Father's Day, etc.  Where does the Bible teach you to celebrate those days?

The Bible does have something to say about Sunday.  Here is a place you can go for resources about Sunday and the Sabbath. 

Sunday meetings were introduced by the apostles, who remembered Jesus' resurrection every time a Sunday came around.  If you don't like that, then perhaps you should tell God that He should have picked a different day for the Resurrection so the apostles wouldn't have use the "Day of the Sun."  Maybe He should have worked it all out for a Monday?  Oh, no, then you would probably accuse Christians of "Moon worship" for meeting on Mondays...

That's all I have time for right now.  It's been a very busy summer for me, but I have lots to write about and more comments to address, so I hope to get back here again soon.